Electronic Ticket?
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Posted by brmortensen austicke

austicke wrote:
jmlawson wrote:Alec that is not the way TD has worked for years.

Consider me schooled. :)_____________________________________
Alec Usticke, Fans of Gen Con Facebook Group

good to know. A few hundred veteran players are eager to hear how you plan to fix this

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Posted by austicke brmortensen

brmortensen wrote:
austicke wrote:Consider me schooled. :)

good to know. A few hundred veteran players are eager to hear how you plan to fix this

Um, that's up to Gen Con, not me.

​​​​​​​_____________________________________
Alec Usticke, Fans of Gen Con Facebook Group

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Posted by jmlawson

Alec isn't official, he just runs a pretty cool unofficial facebook group.

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Posted by binia

I am also eagerly awaiting news about transferring e-tickets to other players, plus how GenCon will handle our concerns as TD players regarding our longstanding practice of ‘ghosting’ runs in special situations.  

1.  Easiest - go back to printed TD tickets this year.  Really.  We hand out tickets to our friends when we see them, and Jeff makes/handles his own ghosting policy.  This will give you another year with a partially running e-ticket system (for other events presumably) and let you check connectivity/other issues relative to the Lucas Oil Stadium.

2.  Acceptable - give us a week or two window to return TD tickets with no restocking fee, and hopefully a way to get the money as a refund to our credit cards rather than just system credit.  

3.  Unacceptable - wait and hope we all just go away, and pray for a last minute hail-Mary pass completion from your IT people getting e-tickets working a half mile away from the rest of the con, in a basement of a concrete and rebar structure.

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Posted by hendelbolaf

To those of us who have run through True Dungeon but do not really care for it, could someone explain what "ghosting" is? Just curious...

Thanks!

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Posted by rong

Ghosting just means they buy the run (all 10 tickets) and then only run a lesser number for an added challenge. So if 6 people run it, they have 4 "ghosts". 

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Posted by hendelbolaf rong

rong wrote:
Ghosting just means they buy the run (all 10 tickets) and then only run a lesser number for an added challenge. So if 6 people run it, they have 4 "ghosts". 

Ouch! That seems expensive or do they then return the 4 "ghosts" at the last minute and get Gen Con credit minus the fee? If so, that seems unfair to others trying to get into an event, but I guess it could happen a lot if you did not mind the 10% charge or whatever for the benefit of playing with just your group...

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Posted by yhfung hendelbolaf

hendelbolaf wrote:
rong wrote:
Ghosting just means they buy the run (all 10 tickets) and then only run a lesser number for an added challenge. So if 6 people run it, they have 4 "ghosts". 

Ouch! That seems expensive or do they then return the 4 "ghosts" at the last minute and get Gen Con credit minus the fee? If so, that seems unfair to others trying to get into an event, but I guess it could happen a lot if you did not mind the 10% charge or whatever for the benefit of playing with just your group...

there's usually enough people with generics around plus most people who ghost appreciate the work that's been put into td and gencon that the only way to do so is to check in with multiple tickets.  it is expensive, but most of the time the "ghost" is treated as another person when it comes to post-run rewards, which do offset the cost.

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Posted by binia

Trying to return ‘ghosted’ tickets would never work at GenCon - the organizers always have enough people on stand-by to fill runs.  Besides, the post-run rewards do offset the cost, for the most part.

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Posted by hendelbolaf binia

binia wrote:
Trying to return ‘ghosted’ tickets would never work at GenCon - the organizers always have enough people on stand-by to fill runs.  Besides, the post-run rewards do offset the cost, for the most part.

At $78 a pop it had better be a freakin' reward of gold and platinum! :)

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Posted by kurtreznor

There is a bit more to 'ghosts' than what has been said so far.  First, the rewards at the end dont really make up for the cost.  You have to have enough 'treasure enhancers' (TD tokens that give more treasure at the end of the dungeon), and to get more than 10 extra treasure you will need token (s) that cost over $1000.  Even then, unless you get a lucky draw, you wont make money...and if you rely on luck, the base # of treasure might be good enough.

as for the ghosting, multiple reasons.
1. You have a group of friends that dont want strangers along.  Maybe your group of 8 has been together for years, so you split the cost of 2 extra tickets.  Or maybe you enjoy the challenge of only having 5 players.
2. You want to guarantee hardcore/nightmare difficulty.  This requires unanimous vote, so you need to know all 10 players will vote it more difficult, thus buying all 10 tickets.  Of course, most of us try to fill all those slots, but...
3. Last minute no-show.  When you have a ticket for a friend, but for some reason they dont make it to the event in time.  THIS is the big thing many of us are worried about (along with the friend who is on the way but 5-10 minites late).  We have all the tickets for the event so that our group can decide difficulty and class selection, but getting a random stranger can ruin those plans.  Many of us would rather eat the cost of that last ticket (and hopefully get some treasure).
the big problem with e-tickets is that as described, we will be unable to give that last ticket to TD.  So, TD will either not get paid for the ticket or they will pull in a random stranger despite the ticket owner standing there with ticket 'in hand'.
4. Theoretically, someone might ghost the ticket just for extra treasure.  But i really believe the treasure is a secondary thought to some other reason, since you really are overpaying for the treasure.  I am planning to join a friend for a 5-person run this year; without this being a special planned run i wouldnt ghost a ticket like this & without that extra treasure i would consider it too expensive.

and please dont think that all hardcore TD players want to avoid new players, many of us enjoy running with new players and introducing them to the game we love, but we also want to make sure we get at least one of each dungeon at higher difficulty.

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Posted by felwred

Please reconsider this. Testing e-ticketing at the largest and most complex event at Gencon is a terrible idea. The logistics challenges alone are daunting with the real possibility of making TD look terrible for all players.

Please also take into consideration that True Dungeon requires coach prep time prior to the run to organize the party and review the tokens necessary for each character (30 minutes). Making the primary ticket buyer wait for everyone to show up will make the coaching room somewhere between difficult to impossible. Most experienced TD players operate by whoever is first in Gencon’s queue will buy for the group but not by name so we can get several runs and drop whatever doesn’t fit the schedules.

Picture me buying 5 tickets for myself and friends. If I show up 10 minutes before my event and I was the ticket buyer, the entire group doesn’t get to do the run because the coaching room won’t process players that fast.  Let’s say 3 more of the tickets was a family but 1 player felt sick and couldn’t make the run but couldn’t communicate that to the group (because we have virtually no cell reception under Lucas field where TD is run). That means the primary ticket holder wait until 5 minutes before the run to go back in - he will likely miss the run. If his family member showed up after he walks in, then that person misses the run. This system will make it routine for coaching to be stressed and people to miss runs or making TD run all events late (a far worse fate since that will cascade badly resulting in losses of all end of day runs for people who all showed up on time.)

The ticket transfer would help but it is vaporware right now. If you could show it to us now, it could be tested prior to the con. Based on what has been said, Jeff at True Dungeon won’t get to see this until sometime in June (and he has Origins that month so it isnlikely very little testing could be done.) add to that, he wasn’t promised the ability to test ticket transfer, only e ticketing.

Judging by the TD forums, we represent at least 25% of all tickets used. Look at your records to see how many TD tickets were bought in lots of more than 1. Conservatively, I’d guess 40%. Based on my own track record, let’s say 25% of the time you have 1 or more players failing to arrive 20 minutes before the run. That gives us 300 times per DAY that coaching won’t be able to do their job correctly resulting in people either unprepared for the run or people missing runs. 25 times per HOUR coaches will be forced to either make TD run late or tell people their ticket won’t be honored. If the late option is chosen, the math says that the last full hour of runs every day will be cancelled (they cannot run past when it will be staffed.)

The solution implemented has to allow for a group to show up piecemeal without a single individual waiting out front. It has to allow for last minute handling of player no-shows so people waiting can get in. It also has to allow for people to buy more tickets than they have people so they can do the more expensive custom runs at extreme difficulty levels. All those solutions must result in TD getting paid for every ticket used (whether it is mutiple tickets used by a single individual or allowing for tranfer of those tickets in real time for credit), the players all being able to use what they paid for, and has to allow for True Dungeon to operate without having to create work arounds for Gencon’s policies.

Please pick smaller events that are less complex to test E-ticketing. I’m running “Og the Role Playing game,” I’ll be the first to volunteer to test it. If it implodes, mine is small enough to work it out on the fly. Hundreds of other similar games would do the same. True Dungeon’s premier event each year is GenCon. Please don’t be like Origins and screw things up by trying to use technology you haven’t figured out yet. Industry standard for testing something like this is an alpha test with all features live, 6 months prior to launch, beta 3 months prior to launch done with 1%-2% size test audience, final beta that has all bugs fixed 1 month prior to launch, the go live (even then, you will still have problems)(I built and sold a software company, I lived this.) You aren’t at alpha yet.

GenCon is only 3 months out. There is still time to do paper tickets for TD, just ask for a beta test group and quite a few groups will volunteer. 2019, after sufficent testing, you could go live for everything e-ticket if it works. You get to the same goal but didn’t blow up your sinlge most popular event.

Fred

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Posted by jeannette

As previously mentioned by other Gen Con staffers, we are currently working on functionality in which to  transfer tickets from the purchaser account to anyone with a Gen Con badge. This functionality, while not currently available, will be prior to the convention, 78 days away. We will make sure to announce this when the functionality is ready.

Our initiative to move to electronic ticketing is an exciting one. We understand that because it's new not having all the immediate answers can be scary and frustrating. We appreciate your passion on this subject, that you and True Adventures LTD are participating in our beta of this exciting technology and thank you for your patience.  

Jeannette LeGault
Senior Director of Event Programming
Gen Con LLC

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Posted by kurtreznor

Transfering tickets to friends account doesnt solve all the problems, for example:

i have all 10 tickets, check in 8 friends, but Bob just texted 20 minutes before start that she cant make it (maybe she unexpectedly made top 8 of a big Magic tournament).  I spend 15 minutes looking for a replacement; but everyone around either wants to go as a couple or doesnt want to play the classes that are left (our group has already decided classes).  I walk up to check-in and say:
"i have the last two tickets to this event, i would like to turn in BOTH of them for just me."

will the system allow this?

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Posted by mhayward1978 jeannette

jeannette wrote:
As previously mentioned by other Gen Con staffers, we are currently working on functionality in which to  transfer tickets from the purchaser account to anyone with a Gen Con badge. This functionality, while not currently available, will be prior to the convention, 78 days away. We will make sure to announce this when the functionality is ready.
Our initiative to move to electronic ticketing is an exciting one. We understand that because it's new not having all the immediate answers can be scary and frustrating. We appreciate your passion on this subject, that you and True Adventures LTD are participating in our beta of this exciting technology and thank you for your patience.  
Jeannette LeGault
Senior Director of Event Programming
Gen Con LLC

There appears to be a large disconnect here, let me try to bridge it:

1. It is a common use case, and a requirement for True Dungeon events, that:


  • An attendee purchase 10 tickets for a TD event
  • That attendee redeems all 10 tickets for that TD event
  • That fewer than 10 attendees will participate in that TD event

The E-Ticketing system as described doesn't seem to support this use case.

The E-Ticketing system as described seems to require that in order for a n attendee to redeem all 10 of their purchased E-Tickets, they would need 9 other attendees present (either all at once or over a period of time) in order to redeem their tickets.   This will not support the common True Dungeon use case of redeeming 10 tickets for fewer than 10 attendees.

I am happy to provide some explanation for the good reasons why veteran TD players want this if you are interested.

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Posted by raven

So, I talked to Mike Boozer on the phone this morning about a refund, and expressed some of the same concerns which are being aired here.

I obviously don't speak for GenCon, and can't swear that I am quoting him perfectly on this, but what I took away from the phone call was this:

1) There WILL be a way to handle transferring e-tickets to a friend. It's not ready yet, but it's high on their priority list, and they are aware that True Dungeon players are eagerly waiting for it.

2) There WILL be a way for a person to use multiple tickets for themselves.

The example I gave was: “What if my friend (who uses a Scooter for mobility) has 2 tickets - because he wants twice as much space to move around in the cramped Dungeon - and he wants to use both tickets for himself? Would he be able to scan his badge twice, and TD would get credit for both tickets?” and Mike assured me that this was possible, so long as True Dungeon was willing to accept this, and that they would be given credit for both tickets. He even brought up the example where people will do challenge runs with fewer people than tickets, and that this could still work.

If Mike is reading these forums and wants to confirm this, I'd appreciate it! (Or please correct me if I came away with the wrong impression.) 

I will say, though, that Mike did some excellent customer service and both managed to take care of my ticketing issue, AND reassured me that GenCon was aware of these issues and taking things very seriously. I'm now looking forward to August with a lot less apprehension than I had been. Both GenCon and True Dungeon take their player base seriously, and want this e-ticket experiment to be a success.

I wish GenCon all the best in their new venture, and hope that the potential bugs and corner-cases raised on these forums are addressed (and tested!) well before August.
 

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Posted by jmlawson raven

raven wrote:
So, I talked to Mike Boozer on the phone this morning about a refund, and expressed some of the same concerns which are being aired here.
I obviously don't speak for GenCon, and can't swear that I am quoting him perfectly on this, but what I took away from the phone call was this:
1) There WILL be a way to handle transferring e-tickets to a friend. It's not ready yet, but it's high on their priority list, and they are aware that True Dungeon players are eagerly waiting for it.
2) There WILL be a way for a person to use multiple tickets for themselves.
The example I gave was: “What if my friend (who uses a Scooter for mobility) has 2 tickets - because he wants twice as much space to move around in the cramped Dungeon - and he wants to use both tickets for himself? Would he be able to scan his badge twice, and TD would get credit for both tickets?” and Mike assured me that this was possible, so long as True Dungeon was willing to accept this, and that they would be given credit for both tickets. He even brought up the example where people will do challenge runs with fewer people than tickets, and that this could still work.
If Mike is reading these forums and wants to confirm this, I'd appreciate it! (Or please correct me if I came away with the wrong impression.) 
I will say, though, that Mike did some excellent customer service and both managed to take care of my ticketing issue, AND reassured me that GenCon was aware of these issues and taking things very seriously. I'm now looking forward to August with a lot less apprehension than I had been. Both GenCon and True Dungeon take their player base seriously, and want this e-ticket experiment to be a success.
I wish GenCon all the best in their new venture, and hope that the potential bugs and corner-cases raised on these forums are addressed (and tested!) well before August.
 

That is reassuring.  I'd also be curious to know what Plan B is, in the event that system does not work at planned.

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Posted by selene314 kurtreznor

kurtreznor wrote:
There is a bit more to 'ghosts' than what has been said so far.  First, the rewards at the end dont really make up for the cost.  You have to have enough 'treasure enhancers' (TD tokens that give more treasure at the end of the dungeon), and to get more than 10 extra treasure you will need token (s) that cost over $1000.  Even then, unless you get a lucky draw, you wont make money...and if you rely on luck, the base # of treasure might be good enough.
as for the ghosting, multiple reasons.
1. You have a group of friends that dont want strangers along.  Maybe your group of 8 has been together for years, so you split the cost of 2 extra tickets.  Or maybe you enjoy the challenge of only having 5 players.
2. You want to guarantee hardcore/nightmare difficulty.  This requires unanimous vote, so you need to know all 10 players will vote it more difficult, thus buying all 10 tickets.  Of course, most of us try to fill all those slots, but...
3. Last minute no-show.  When you have a ticket for a friend, but for some reason they dont make it to the event in time.  THIS is the big thing many of us are worried about (along with the friend who is on the way but 5-10 minites late).  We have all the tickets for the event so that our group can decide difficulty and class selection, but getting a random stranger can ruin those plans.  Many of us would rather eat the cost of that last ticket (and hopefully get some treasure).
the big problem with e-tickets is that as described, we will be unable to give that last ticket to TD.  So, TD will either not get paid for the ticket or they will pull in a random stranger despite the ticket owner standing there with ticket 'in hand'.
4. Theoretically, someone might ghost the ticket just for extra treasure.  But i really believe the treasure is a secondary thought to some other reason, since you really are overpaying for the treasure.  I am planning to join a friend for a 5-person run this year; without this being a special planned run i wouldnt ghost a ticket like this & without that extra treasure i would consider it too expensive.
and please dont think that all hardcore TD players want to avoid new players, many of us enjoy running with new players and introducing them to the game we love, but we also want to make sure we get at least one of each dungeon at higher difficulty.

Thanks for the explanation. Some of the earlier posts were making it sound like a large fraction of TD tickets fall into your first category, people paying extra money to exclude everyone else from playing with them.

Could categories 2 and 3 be solved by letting the ticketed players choose classes and difficulty level before the party gets filled out from the waitlist?
I assume that's what you already do on the TD forums; surely the people waiting hours to get in include some geared up for nightmare difficulty.

When an event regularly sells out so many time slots, every run ought to be full. Buy tickets to all three dungeons if you want, but don't artificially inflate demand beyond the actual number of players.

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Posted by jmlawson selene314

selene314 wrote:
kurtreznor wrote:
There is a bit more to 'ghosts' than what has been said so far.  First, the rewards at the end dont really make up for the cost.  You have to have enough 'treasure enhancers' (TD tokens that give more treasure at the end of the dungeon), and to get more than 10 extra treasure you will need token (s) that cost over $1000.  Even then, unless you get a lucky draw, you wont make money...and if you rely on luck, the base # of treasure might be good enough.
as for the ghosting, multiple reasons.
1. You have a group of friends that dont want strangers along.  Maybe your group of 8 has been together for years, so you split the cost of 2 extra tickets.  Or maybe you enjoy the challenge of only having 5 players.
2. You want to guarantee hardcore/nightmare difficulty.  This requires unanimous vote, so you need to know all 10 players will vote it more difficult, thus buying all 10 tickets.  Of course, most of us try to fill all those slots, but...
3. Last minute no-show.  When you have a ticket for a friend, but for some reason they dont make it to the event in time.  THIS is the big thing many of us are worried about (along with the friend who is on the way but 5-10 minites late).  We have all the tickets for the event so that our group can decide difficulty and class selection, but getting a random stranger can ruin those plans.  Many of us would rather eat the cost of that last ticket (and hopefully get some treasure).
the big problem with e-tickets is that as described, we will be unable to give that last ticket to TD.  So, TD will either not get paid for the ticket or they will pull in a random stranger despite the ticket owner standing there with ticket 'in hand'.
4. Theoretically, someone might ghost the ticket just for extra treasure.  But i really believe the treasure is a secondary thought to some other reason, since you really are overpaying for the treasure.  I am planning to join a friend for a 5-person run this year; without this being a special planned run i wouldnt ghost a ticket like this & without that extra treasure i would consider it too expensive.
and please dont think that all hardcore TD players want to avoid new players, many of us enjoy running with new players and introducing them to the game we love, but we also want to make sure we get at least one of each dungeon at higher difficulty.

Thanks for the explanation. Some of the earlier posts were making it sound like a large fraction of TD tickets fall into your first category, people paying extra money to exclude everyone else from playing with them.Could categories 2 and 3 be solved by letting the ticketed players choose classes and difficulty level before the party gets filled out from the waitlist?
I assume that's what you already do on the TD forums; surely the people waiting hours to get in include some geared up for nightmare difficulty.
When an event regularly sells out so many time slots, every run ought to be full. Buy tickets to all three dungeons if you want, but don't artificially inflate demand beyond the actual number of players.
You are asking TD to change a long standing pattern of play by some of its most ardent supporters.  Some of whom support TD through large token purchases.  Those purchases make possible the development of sets and props between Cons.  

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Posted by kurtreznor selene314

selene314 wrote:
kurtreznor wrote:
There is a bit more to 'ghosts' ...

Thanks for the explanation. Some of the earlier posts were making it sound like a large fraction of TD tickets fall into your first category, people paying extra money to exclude everyone else from playing with them.Could categories 2 and 3 be solved by letting the ticketed players choose classes and difficulty level before the party gets filled out from the waitlist?
I assume that's what you already do on the TD forums; surely the people waiting hours to get in include some geared up for nightmare difficulty.
When an event regularly sells out so many time slots, every run ought to be full. Buy tickets to all three dungeons if you want, but don't artificially inflate demand beyond the actual number of players.
letting hard ticket players decide difficulty and choose classes first:
at a glance, this seems like it would help, but...

a problem arises because the only way to guarantee your group has all the hard tickets is to buy all 10 for the run.  So, if there is one missing player, the ticket has already been paid for, there just isnt a person for it.  As the buyer of that ticket, i would love to find someone who will give me cash for it and join the run, but the TD waitlist cant help...i believe they are not allowed to help players sell tickets, they are only allowed to fill empty spots; and that spot isnt empty unless i dont turn in the ticket.  It is an awkward scenario.  If i cant find someone on my own, i have to turn in the ticket without a player or else TD will fill from the waitlist.  Even if you give my group priority on decisions, if TD fills from the waitlist, not only have 11 payments been made for 10 players (and i got nothing out of my 10th ticket despite having a 10th player who could have paid me instead of use generics), but that person may be completely unprepared for nightmare.  And we have experience with similar scenarios in the past: at one time TD designated certain times to default to nightmare, so smaller groups didnt have to buy all 10 tickets, but when players showed up and some of party wasnt equipped for nightmare, these runs were often downgraded so that the newer players could still enjoy TD.

so, basically, this is already kinda what we do by buying all 10 and filling with people agreeable to the core group, so i dont think hard tickets getting priority really fixes the issue.  If you want to get more players using those no-show ghost tickets i think the best way is for policy to allow the official TD waitlist to put potential players in contact with ticket buyers who have an extra ticket.

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