Health and Safety Info 2023
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Posted by squirecam lanigironu

lanigironu wrote:
helenbb wrote:Agreed. If masks are requested, I will politely decline. If that makes me a jerk, then I'm sure that I won't be the only one.

That's not really what I was saying if I understand you correctly. I'm saying if you see an event with "masking requested" (hypothetical, I don't think that's gonna be allowed), and still sign up buying a ticket knowing full and well you won't wear a mask then you're very likely a jerk/narcissist. Politely declining to buy a ticket for that event is different and I'd have no issue with that. 
matthias9 wrote:If that's true, aren't you de facto requiring them?

Not really, but sure if you interpret it that way. I don't see why that would be a problem besides GenCon not wanting to deal with the whining. It seems like a group of people that "are all about choice" really aren't for Event Organizers having a choice on masking for their events they put together and run.
This was what Origins was going to do before the backlash, and it was going to be a nightmare. You really can’t have individual GM policies without having a lot of staff who will then be forced to mediate the dispute. What if the attendee simply won’t agree to mask. Are they prohibited from playing? What if the other gamers exclude or gang up on that person as “punishment” ? What if more people don’t want to mask but the one wanting masks is insistent upon it due to a medical concern?

I’ve been pro mask. But it can’t be left to individuals. And frankly everyone knows the rules we expect to have. If I had a medical concern then I would simply decide not to attend rather than expecting everyone to make an exception for me. The same way I expected the no mask people last year to either not attend or mask up. Because that was the policy.

I just see a lot of problems if it’s left up to individual GM’s.

Posted by lehane

If Gencon does allow individual tables to set their own rules, can we at least get an option put in the event search engine to screen out either for masks required or not required on events?

I personally don't want anything to do with the drama once it comes time to sit down and game. The last thing I care for is a poisonous atmosphere in one of the places I expect not to have to tolerate it. 

Posted by lanigironu

squirecam wrote:This was what Origins was going to do before the backlash, and it was going to be a nightmare. You really can’t have individual GM policies without having a lot of staff who will then be forced to mediate the dispute. What if the attendee simply won’t agree to mask. Are they prohibited from playing? What if the other gamers exclude or gang up on that person as “punishment” ? What if more people don’t want to mask but the one wanting masks is insistent upon it due to a medical concern?I’ve been pro mask. But it can’t be left to individuals. And frankly everyone knows the rules we expect to have. If I had a medical concern then I would simply decide not to attend rather than expecting everyone to make an exception for me. The same way I expected the no mask people last year to either not attend or mask up. Because that was the policy.
I just see a lot of problems if it’s left up to individual GM’s.

I mostly agree and doubt Gencon allows that all due to logistics, but it may be an issue and EOs here and on Facebook are asking. There were issues last year with finding GMs for some groups and it's likely to happen again. 

Posted by mikeboozer lehane

lehane wrote:
If Gencon does allow individual tables to set their own rules, can we at least get an option put in the event search engine to screen out either for masks required or not required on events?
I personally don't want anything to do with the drama once it comes time to sit down and game. The last thing I care for is a poisonous atmosphere in one of the places I expect not to have to tolerate it. 

As has been previously stated. EO's will not be able to set their own rules. That is not the question that is being discussed here. 

There is an important difference.

The question is whether or not you can request people to wear masks in your event description.

Mike

Posted by armored badger mikeboozer

mikeboozer wrote:As has been previously stated. EO's will not be able to set their own rules. That is not the question that is being discussed here. There is an important difference.
The question is whether or not you can request people to wear masks in your event description.
Mike

A few questions involving allowing EO's to put "mask requested" in the event description:

1) What happens to the individual who shows up to an event without a mask that has it requested in the description? Will they be denied access to the game, or is it the EO's responsibility to ensure they have extra masks available?

2) If it is not in the event description, is the EO allowed to request it at the time of the event?

3) What should the individual do should they be mistreated for showing up to an event in either situation?

I ask these because they are potential issues that could arise if EO's are allowed to add that to the description. 

Posted by grognard262 mikeboozer

mikeboozer wrote:The question is whether or not you can request people to wear masks in your event description.

I wonder what sort of ugliness ensues if a bunch of GMs request that people wear masks, but people show up without them anyway.  In some cases (such as BMG events) you don't know who your GM is until you get there.

Also, do GMs get to edit their events after the maskless people have already signed up for them?  That could be a mess as well.

Posted by mikeboozer armored badger

armored badger wrote:
mikeboozer wrote:As has been previously stated. EO's will not be able to set their own rules. That is not the question that is being discussed here. There is an important difference.
The question is whether or not you can request people to wear masks in your event description.
Mike
A few questions involving allowing EO's to put "mask requested" in the event description:
1) What happens to the individual who shows up to an event without a mask that has it requested in the description? Will they be denied access to the game, or is it the EO's responsibility to ensure they have extra masks available?
2) If it is not in the event description, is the EO allowed to request it at the time of the event?
3) What should the individual do should they be mistreated for showing up to an event in either situation?
I ask these because they are potential issues that could arise if EO's are allowed to add that to the description. 

As previously stated we will have an answer by the end of this week.

Mike

Posted by kevinrg

With no mask requirements I won't be wearing a mask.   Having said that, if 10% of the events have 'mask requested' in them, I'll just move along to another event.    Out of 17K events, that still gives me some 15K+ events to pick.   It's a mixed blend of me not wanting to deal with it and respecting their wishes to run events with masks.   (Mask requested is going to be a not so subtle 'mask required')

However... if it gets to where it is like 30%+ I'll have to make a different determination.

My gut says 10-15%-ish.  Last year all the events I did people were wanting to ditch masks.    Granted, I do board game events so, that might be different than what people experience in RPG events. 

Posted by lehane mikeboozer

mikeboozer wrote:
lehane wrote:
If Gencon does allow individual tables to set their own rules, can we at least get an option put in the event search engine to screen out either for masks required or not required on events?
I personally don't want anything to do with the drama once it comes time to sit down and game. The last thing I care for is a poisonous atmosphere in one of the places I expect not to have to tolerate it. 

As has been previously stated. EO's will not be able to set their own rules. That is not the question that is being discussed here. There is an important difference.
The question is whether or not you can request people to wear masks in your event description.
Mike
I likely wasn't wording it correctly. I tend to do that. My Apologies. 

I am mostly worried about events going poisonous due to arguments on masks. Then GM retaliations when players aren't acceding to their wishes. 

I was asking if there are going to be "masks requested" (then enforced by players/GMs unofficially) can we get a search option to weed these events out so those of us that don't want any part of it cannot get these events to even show up when we are building our wishlists?

I don't know programming well enough to know if that can even be an option or not at this point in the year. So, my Apologies (again) if I am asking for something that simply isn't possible. 

Posted by grognard262 kevinrg

kevinrg wrote:Mask requested is going to be a not so subtle 'mask required'

Exactly.  The health and safety policy already says "Masks and vaccines are strongly encouraged".  Adding "masks requested" would be something more than "strongly encouraged", which can only be read as "masks required, without actually being required."

It would just be a way of requiring masks through social pressure instead of convention policy.

Posted by watchdog grognard262

grognard262 wrote:
kevinrg wrote:Mask requested is going to be a not so subtle 'mask required'

Exactly.  The health and safety policy already says "Masks and vaccines are strongly encouraged".  Adding "masks requested" would be something more than "strongly encouraged", which can only be read as "masks required, without actually being required."It would just be a way of requiring masks through social pressure instead of convention policy.
So you’d have no objection to event descriptions using the same “strongly encouraged” wording, in bold, as stated in the health and safety policy, as long as the word “requested” wasn’t used?

Posted by grognard262 watchdog

watchdog wrote:
grognard262 wrote:
kevinrg wrote:Mask requested is going to be a not so subtle 'mask required'

Exactly.  The health and safety policy already says "Masks and vaccines are strongly encouraged".  Adding "masks requested" would be something more than "strongly encouraged", which can only be read as "masks required, without actually being required."It would just be a way of requiring masks through social pressure instead of convention policy.
So you’d have no objection to event descriptions using the same “strongly encouraged” wording, in bold, as stated in the health and safety policy, as long as the word “requested” wasn’t used?

I think it would be fine if Gen Con automatically added that to every event description.  That is the health and safety policy, and should apply equally to every event.

The issue is that people want to use their own wording to signal that you are not welcome at their event unless you are masked.

Posted by lanigironu lehane

lehane wrote:I don't know programming well enough to know if that can even be an option or not at this point in the year. So, my Apologies (again) if I am asking for something that simply isn't possible. 

I don't know what GenCon does for event submissions, but assuming they have an online form it's an easy change. I think EOs can modify stuff after an event has been accepted so that's probably the case. Create a field on event form for "GM mask requested" then pop a filter on the event search page for that field like they do for all others already and you're set. That part is like 10 minutes of work and would be essential if GenCon decides to allow it. 

Posted by kevinrg watchdog

watchdog wrote:
=inheritSo you’d have no objection to event descriptions using the same “strongly encouraged” wording, in bold, as stated in the health and safety policy, as long as the word “requested” wasn’t used?

Restating Gencon's policies in each event seems like overkill.   It is there in the policy that they are encouraged and mentioning it again, to me, would imply they want masks at the table otherwise if it truly didn't matter then an EO would just allow the Gencon policy to speak for itself and accept there might be a mix of mask/unmasked at the table.

Honestly, I'd rather 'masks requested' be put in there.  Right or wrong I'll take it as 'masks required' and I'll avoid the event.   Not out of spite or anger, but If it improves someone's Gencon experience to only game at 'masks requested' event descriptions I'll find events that people don't care and allow Gencon's overall 'masks encouraged' policy to dictate their event.

 

Posted by lanigironu grognard262

grognard262 wrote:I think it would be fine if Gen Con automatically added that to every event description.  That is the health and safety policy, and should apply equally to every event. The issue is that people want to use their own wording to signal that you are not welcome at their event unless you are masked.

I get why GenCon doesn't want to deal with it for numerous reasons, but as a gamer I genuinely don't see why that would be an issue. There are thousands and thousands of events, people who'd refuse to wear a mask no matter what aren't going to be left hanging. And if they have an event they really want to attend, it's probably because they like the company, so I'd expect at least the modicum of respect to acknowledge the wishes then. I also don't think most GMs are going to have an issue if 5/6 people show up masked, that's fine to leave the other alone. I'm not trying to be uncivil to anyone, but this sounds like a double standard where people could make a willing choice to disrespect someone else's polite request then... get mad they're respected equally (as in possibly but unlikely punished within game)?

It should be as simple as "This event is asking for masks please, I don't want to wear a mask so pass" or "This event is asking for masks please, I don't want to wear a mask but really like their games so I'll put one on for the 2 hours then take it off." I imagine like 99.8% of attendees would handle it one of those ways and there'd be 0 issues from them as long as the policy from GenCon is clear and events are transparent. 

Posted by squirecam grognard262

grognard262 wrote:
kevinrg wrote:Mask requested is going to be a not so subtle 'mask required'

Exactly.  The health and safety policy already says "Masks and vaccines are strongly encouraged".  Adding "masks requested" would be something more than "strongly encouraged", which can only be read as "masks required, without actually being required."It would just be a way of requiring masks through social pressure instead of convention policy.
as a person in favor of the masks and prior policy I completely agree this time. Placing a mask requested is essentially asking the players to accede to the GM pressure despite it not being required by the event policy. It just doesnt feel right. 

Posted by squirecam lanigironu

lanigironu wrote:
grognard262 wrote:I think it would be fine if Gen Con automatically added that to every event description.  That is the health and safety policy, and should apply equally to every event. The issue is that people want to use their own wording to signal that you are not welcome at their event unless you are masked.

I get why GenCon doesn't want to deal with it for numerous reasons, but as a gamer I genuinely don't see why that would be an issue. There are thousands and thousands of events, people who'd refuse to wear a mask no matter what aren't going to be left hanging. And if they have an event they really want to attend, it's probably because they like the company, so I'd expect at least the modicum of respect to acknowledge the wishes then. I also don't think most GMs are going to have an issue if 5/6 people show up masked, that's fine to leave the other alone. I'm not trying to be uncivil to anyone, but this sounds like a double standard where people could make a willing choice to disrespect someone else's polite request then... get mad they're respected equally (as in possibly but unlikely punished within game)?It should be as simple as "This event is asking for masks please, I don't want to wear a mask so pass" or "This event is asking for masks please, I don't want to wear a mask but really like their games so I'll put one on for the 2 hours then take it off." I imagine like 99.8% of attendees would handle it one of those ways and there'd be 0 issues from them as long as the policy from GenCon is clear and events are transparent. 
I think society has shown it isnt that simple. 

People are going to be citing the policy as the required standard. If the game doesnt go their way, they might feel the GM was punishing them for not wearing a mask.

At least potential GM's know now and can plan. And if there are too few GM's such that an event cant run, it can be taken into account next year. 

Posted by masksoff squirecam

squirecam wrote:
lanigironu wrote:
grognard262 wrote:I think it would be fine if Gen Con automatically added that to every event description.  That is the health and safety policy, and should apply equally to every event. The issue is that people want to use their own wording to signal that you are not welcome at their event unless you are masked.

I get why GenCon doesn't want to deal with it for numerous reasons, but as a gamer I genuinely don't see why that would be an issue. There are thousands and thousands of events, people who'd refuse to wear a mask no matter what aren't going to be left hanging. And if they have an event they really want to attend, it's probably because they like the company, so I'd expect at least the modicum of respect to acknowledge the wishes then. I also don't think most GMs are going to have an issue if 5/6 people show up masked, that's fine to leave the other alone. I'm not trying to be uncivil to anyone, but this sounds like a double standard where people could make a willing choice to disrespect someone else's polite request then... get mad they're respected equally (as in possibly but unlikely punished within game)?It should be as simple as "This event is asking for masks please, I don't want to wear a mask so pass" or "This event is asking for masks please, I don't want to wear a mask but really like their games so I'll put one on for the 2 hours then take it off." I imagine like 99.8% of attendees would handle it one of those ways and there'd be 0 issues from them as long as the policy from GenCon is clear and events are transparent. 
I think society has shown it isnt that simple. People are going to be citing the policy as the required standard. If the game doesnt go their way, they might feel the GM was punishing them for not wearing a mask.
At least potential GM's know now and can plan. And if there are too few GM's such that an event cant run, it can be taken into account next year. 

The policy is quite clear that masks aren’t required. If an event then requires a mask; I happily decline, file a complaint, get a refund and leave you a player short.

It’s that simple. 

 

Posted by gib_rebeg

"You spin me right round baby right round"

Don't get the reference, re-read this thread.

With that said, two bits time.

First bit. GC will have to announce by Sat. at the latest what this will be ether way. Come Sunday, with badges going on sale, any change in policy could cause a demand for refunds.

Second bit. I don't really see GC allowing EO to include anything to the effect of "Requested" "Required" "Encouraged" or so forth. This is opening a Pandora's box of problems for hall managers who will have to run to every event and settle disputes by those who want masks, and those who don't. It needs to be one simple policy, and that is all. Ether we all must wear mask, or it's not required (IE Attendee's choice and no one else's)

 

Posted by donaldbain

What are the consequences of the EO cancelling the event at start time? 

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