The new survey...
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Posted by qwaserity

Politicians hold meet and greets in their home territories and only really talk to the people who agree with them. This survey felt like that. I expect to see an announcement where they claim that X% of the GenCon crowd agree with this, that and whatever other thing they are looking for. A simple suggestion box at the convention would have been cheaper and given a better feel as to what the crowd wants.

Posted by xanathon qwaserity

qwaserity wrote:
Politicians hold meet and greets in their home territories and only really talk to the people who agree with them. This survey felt like that. I expect to see an announcement where they claim that X% of the GenCon crowd agree with this, that and whatever other thing they are looking for. A simple suggestion box at the convention would have been cheaper and given a better feel as to what the crowd wants.
I don’t know if that is the issue. I don’t see a Gen Con as a place where people feel excluded at all. In fact I think a lot of the growth of the convention has been because the staff at Gen Con has made it their mission to bringing in more LGBTQ, trans, and similar groups. 

While I have no issues with that I don’t want Gen Con to become a place where any specific group is catered to. Gen Con should remain a place where all are treated equal and all labels are dropped except that of Gen Con attendee. 

Everyone should be allowed to enjoy Gen Con as they see fit and if their view of enjoying Gen Con isn’t something that someone else agrees with they have the ability to walk away from it. 

I went to the Gen Con dance in 2019 briefly. I saw two guys dancing or should I say fry humping each other. I didn’t care to see that so I left rather than stay and watch that and possibly others doing things I didn’t care to see. 

just don’t let others affect your ability to enjoy Gen Con. It’s not worth getting upset over when there are other things to do. 

Posted by squirecam

This is an explanation of the survey.

https://mobile.twitter.com/cypheroftyr/status/1417241557942611968

Posted by fethbone rfsullivan

rfsullivan wrote:
I think I see what they're getting at (trying to make GenCon more inclusive, bring in people who might have felt excluded, and by extension bump the sales numbers back up), but it seems... misaimed, I guess. 
The survey seems targeted to reach people who were turned off by GenCon, but is being delivered via GenCon's website and email list. Won't most of that audience be people who approve of GenCon? Is there a presumption that there's a large body of non-attendees with their noses pressed against the metaphorical glass, waiting for an unspecified change in diversity policy before coming in? 
OK, so after reading the explanation on Twitter, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Unless you follow this person on social media, if you weren't already interested in going to Gencon, how would you know about this survey? Yet they are trying to reach out to people who, "more IMPORTANTLY [are not] attending"?

Also, I mean, I don't know this person, but saying it is "mostly men" is a bit hyperbolic, though true in the literal sense that more men attend. From my observation and posting about it a couple years ago, I would guess it's about 1:3 ratio of female to male currently. If someone were to tell me a gathering was "mostly x" I would imagine more like a 1:5 or 1:10 ratio. 
 

Posted by austicke fethbone

fethbone wrote:From my observation and posting about it a couple years ago, I would guess it's about 1:3 ratio of female to male currently.

If the membership composition of the Fans of Gen Con Facebook group is any indication, it's more like 1:2.

Of 18k group members, it's 34% female, 64% male and 2% custom.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the gender distribution is closer for younger ages. 44% of group members aged 25-34 are female.

Posted by fethbone austicke

austicke wrote:
fethbone wrote:From my observation and posting about it a couple years ago, I would guess it's about 1:3 ratio of female to male currently.

If the membership composition of the Fans of Gen Con Facebook group is any indication, it's more like 1:2.Of 18k group members, it's 34% female, 64% male and 2% custom.
Perhaps not surprisingly, the gender distribution is closer for younger ages. 44% of group members aged 25-34 are female.
Yes, you are correct, sorry about that. I meant that it seemed about a third of Gencon attendees appeared to be female the last few years.

Posted by mollymolly cinnibar

cinnibar wrote:
I think #12 asked for an assumption that something diversity-related was stopping you from attending.  Could use another choice there, I left it unanswered.

Question 12 really irritated me because it assumes there is a problem and doesn't even give you the option of saying there isn't one. 

I found this whole thing to be offensive and infantilizing of people of color. 

Posted by xanathon mollymolly

mollymolly wrote:
cinnibar wrote:
I think #12 asked for an assumption that something diversity-related was stopping you from attending.  Could use another choice there, I left it unanswered.

Question 12 really irritated me because it assumes there is a problem and doesn't even give you the option of saying there isn't one. I found this whole thing to be offensive and infantilizing of people of color. 
I honestly wonder if Gen Con has a firm grasp on the true definition of diversity.  It seems diversity to them only includes LGBTQ and gender as they don't mention people of color or religion which are equally important when discussing diversity.

Posted by helenbb

I didn't get it either. I've been to Gen Con for many years and everyone has been welcoming, friendly, and interested in gaming. No one cares about anything else. Now if someone is ill-mannered and disrupting a game, then that may not be a welcoming experience, but you just go with the flow on the rare occasions that happens (only happened to me personally once in 6 years).

Posted by surrealrain

The survey was slightly awkwardly worded, and as Ryric said, seems to be asking about your first gen con which... with a number of us won't be relevant to the here and now.

Gen Con has always been one of the more welcoming and friendly cons I've been to, but there is often room for improvement, and assuming everything is a-ok will not help to find the places that could be improved. Making certain of a safe and welcoming environment for people who have historically been excluded means checking in to see if the measures taken are working. It's not a one and done.

It also *has* to be fairly visible. Groups who are historically excluded from the hobby, or who are discriminated against generally, need explicit welcome. It's not enough to just say "everyone is welcome" because that often comes with strings attached. Everyone is welcome as long as you go with the flow and don't actually say anything about any problems.

Opening the floor to marginalized people and actually listening when they say something is in need of improvement is the only way to know what needs improvement.

Posted by sovietprince

I see all kind of ppl at gencon of all color, race, gender,ect of course there is more white people since they make up the vast majority of the populace. I honestly don't care if ever presenter was Latino no more then I care if they are all blonde headed, I care about the topic there presenting which I believe the vast majority of attendees do. 

Sorry if I went off on a tangent but this " fill in the box" mentality drives me nuts, ppl should get there roles based on there skill set not to fill in a box.

Posted by sovietprince mollymolly

mollymolly wrote:
cinnibar wrote:
I think #12 asked for an assumption that something diversity-related was stopping you from attending.  Could use another choice there, I left it unanswered.

Question 12 really irritated me because it assumes there is a problem and doesn't even give you the option of saying there isn't one. I found this whole thing to be offensive and infantilizing of people of color. 

Welcome to the Woke side were they only deal with black and white your either for them or your the worst thing to ever exist.  I believe in = rights just not the way that most people go about it these days. 

Posted by rhone1

It was a silly survey.  Not sure who put it together, but it was poorly done.

Posted by quarex

I do agree that this survey was delivered in a strange way considering the goal is clearly to figure out what the convention can do to get people who feel marginalized to feel less marginalized.  Most of the people seeing this survey are quite obviously not feeling terribly marginalized as they are reading e-mail sent directly to them from Gen-Con, so presumably they have a degree of comfort with the show already.  But that does not mean they should not be taking the survey.  Maybe it should have had the second or third item be like "if you believe there are zero problems with diversity at Gen-Con, click here," and stop wasting your time.

For the record, despite somehow being the most left-wing person in this thread, I have never seen any discriminatory behavior in action at Gen-Con (other than the old name "Spousal Activities" and the literal-ball-and-chain icon, which they did fix), which I love.  It is one of the many reasons this is my favorite time of every year.  But, I am also a straight white dude who has almost exclusively attended with other straight white dudes.  I have no doubt there are a lot of very interesting stories coming in through this survey that may lead to some subtle but positive changes in the future.  I know some people are well-meaning when they say that equality should mean everyone is treated the same, but we would not have lactation rooms or low-stimulation/quiet areas or even handicapped-accessible entrances/bathrooms if we went all-in on the logic that everyone should be treated the same to achieve equality.

Anyone posting here barely disguising their disgust for people not like them might want to seriously consider whether you are part of the problem, though.

Posted by fethbone quarex

quarex wrote:
I do agree that this survey was delivered in a strange way considering the goal is clearly to figure out what the convention can do to get people who feel marginalized to feel less marginalized.  Most of the people seeing this survey are quite obviously not feeling terribly marginalized as they are reading e-mail sent directly to them from Gen-Con, so presumably they have a degree of comfort with the show already.  But that does not mean they should not be taking the survey.  Maybe it should have had the second or third item be like "if you believe there are zero problems with diversity at Gen-Con, click here," and stop wasting your time.
For the record, despite somehow being the most left-wing person in this thread, I have never seen any discriminatory behavior in action at Gen-Con (other than the old name "Spousal Activities" and the literal-ball-and-chain icon, which they did fix), which I love.  It is one of the many reasons this is my favorite time of every year.  But, I am also a straight white dude who has almost exclusively attended with other straight white dudes.  I have no doubt there are a lot of very interesting stories coming in through this survey that may lead to some subtle but positive changes in the future.  I know some people are well-meaning when they say that equality should mean everyone is treated the same, but we would not have lactation rooms or low-stimulation/quiet areas or even handicapped-accessible entrances/bathrooms if we went all-in on the logic that everyone should be treated the same to achieve equality.
Anyone posting here barely disguising their disgust for people not like them might want to seriously consider whether you are part of the problem, though.
People threw shade at me several years ago when I said I thought the category name and activities contained in “spousal activities” were outdated and probably sexist, and they were arguing why the category and name SHOULD stay. 

though I do think in 2018-2019(? The years all blend together now) the icon was at least changed to a different symbol.

Nice to see some things do change....even though I didn’t think much of this particular survey, it is true there is always room for improvement.

Posted by chaoticneutral262 quarex

quarex wrote:
Anyone posting here barely disguising their disgust for people not like them might want to seriously consider whether you are part of the problem, though.

The above referenced Twitter thread is basically that.  The author, who appears to be influential in this survey, seems disgusted that Gen Con is "a mass of white, cis, mostly male presenting folks" and not enough "people like me".

Posted by surrealrain chaoticneutral262

chaoticneutral262 wrote:
quarex wrote:
Anyone posting here barely disguising their disgust for people not like them might want to seriously consider whether you are part of the problem, though.

The above referenced Twitter thread is basically that.  The author, who appears to be influential in this survey, seems disgusted that Gen Con is "a mass of white, cis, mostly male presenting folks" and not enough "people like me".
How does making an effort to include more and different people negatively impact a group that historically has made up the majority of attendees? How is correcting the reasons people may feel unwelcome anything but a good thing for the hobby at large?

Posted by chaoticneutral262 surrealrain

surrealrain wrote:
chaoticneutral262 wrote:
quarex wrote:
Anyone posting here barely disguising their disgust for people not like them might want to seriously consider whether you are part of the problem, though.

The above referenced Twitter thread is basically that.  The author, who appears to be influential in this survey, seems disgusted that Gen Con is "a mass of white, cis, mostly male presenting folks" and not enough "people like me".
How does making an effort to include more and different people negatively impact a group that historically has made up the majority of attendees? How is correcting the reasons people may feel unwelcome anything but a good thing for the hobby at large?

Well, in my experience Gen Con would rank among the most inclusive events I have attended.  I've sat at tables with people of all types, they all seemed to be very welcome and welcoming and everyone was having a good time.  Everywhere you look there are pronouns, rainbows, and gaymer and ally tags.  The convention has strict policies against intolerance.  If someone feels unwelcome in that environment, perhaps they are the problem, and not Gen Con.

Posted by qwaserity surrealrain

How does making an effort to include more and different people negatively impact a group that historically has made up the majority of attendees? How is correcting the reasons people may feel unwelcome anything but a good thing for the hobby at large?
We need to be as inclusive as possible. However (playing devil's advocate here), it is possible to overcorrect while being inclusive. For example, buildings need to be accessible to everyone even if it means paying for added construction of ramps and automatic doors. The cost of these is easily waived off as such requirements are ubiquitous. But if I wanted to bring my comfort elephant to GenCon, I can't reasonably expect them to rebuild the convention center. Plus, I bet people would be mad at me if millions of dollars were spent just on a few elephant owners. So the elephant doors are just too expensive to justify.

Adapt this example to GenCon looking to be more inclusive. Should we offer discounted tickets to increase diversity? Free tickets? Pay diverse people to come? Again, it's an oversimplification of the problem with no easy answer. Every dollar spent on one cause is not spent on another cause.

We the GenConners (do we have a name?) need to invite and include everyone who loves to game and geek out without having to pay for the elephant doors. There is a cost to making the con more inclusive but being more inclusive means more people and more money for GenCon. The survey, while poorly worded, is looking to find the balance without breaking the bank.

Sadly, some will read this or already think "every dollar spent on them is not a dollar spent on me!" and that's true. That's the "negative impact" you will find when we look to include more people. As a middle child, white, cis male with no problems I can't solve I see lots of money and attention given to others in need. And I'm okay with that and I hope you are too. But I hope that the next time you see a ramp or automatic opening door you'll think upon this rant and smile.

Posted by elvinlord surrealrain

surrealrain wrote:
chaoticneutral262 wrote:
quarex wrote:
Anyone posting here barely disguising their disgust for people not like them might want to seriously consider whether you are part of the problem, though.

The above referenced Twitter thread is basically that.  The author, who appears to be influential in this survey, seems disgusted that Gen Con is "a mass of white, cis, mostly male presenting folks" and not enough "people like me".
How does making an effort to include more and different people negatively impact a group that historically has made up the majority of attendees? How is correcting the reasons people may feel unwelcome anything but a good thing for the hobby at large?
No one in this thread is saying Gen Con shouldn't market to as wide a group as possible, they absolutely should. No one is saying Gen Con shouldn't gather input from attendees to make the convention as comfortable and accommodating as possible, they absolutely should.

What people are pointing out was that the survey was constructed clunky and awkward. It also seemed to have a per-drawn conclusion that the reason there are not more minority groups at Gen Con was that the current attendee base was somehow being exclusionary and not welcoming. That right there is just wrong. The vast majority of con goers are welcoming and inclusive. Most of use have been excluded and pushed to the side at one point. The only thing we care about, are you a gamer and here to have fun what ever bend that might take? Ok cool lets sit down and game, or watch movies or go petal a beer car around the city.

If Gen Con wants to point finger they should point them right back at themselves. The powers that be at Gen Con are responsible for marketing. It falls on them to spend their marketing dollars to try to attract different minority groups. It will be interesting to see if they actually get any useful suggestions out of the survey. Helpful suggestion if you put out future surveys like this, just put a screener question upfront which states “We are trying to gather information relevant to increasing attendance of XYZ group. Do you think you can provide valuable insight towards this goal? Yes/No. Clicking no will take you to the general audience questions.” Word your questions without preconceive bias. Saves everyone time and you gather better data in the end.

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