Magic the Gathering ( Locked)
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Posted by brotherbock xanathon
#76

xanathon wrote:I disagree with your comment when you stated that it's not your responsibility as I have said in several posts.  I understand that you are doing what you can and what is in your capacity to do.  I trust that you are doing what you can to get the events listed.

If you believe that he has done what is in his capacity to do, how could it possibly be his responsibility to do more? 

Derek has been claiming that it is not his responsibility to force them to get their ducks in a huddle earlier. He's not saying he's not responsible for talking to them, asking them to hurry up even. He is responsible for doing what is in his power. You agree he has done that. So what is, as the other poster said, 'on Gencon' about this? 

Look, let's be constructive. If you want Pastimes to get their act together, then you go contact other large MtG organizers from other conventions and ask them to look into Gencon. Who are Pastimes's competitors? Send them some queries, and then, importantly, *tell Pastimes* that you have done this. Make it important to them. 

If you complain here, but then drop just as much money on their events year after year, regardless of when they get their events in, they have *zero* motivation to improve. If their events sell well, then Gencon has little motivation as well. 

So go do something. Find competition for them, hit them in the pocketbook. Don't treat them like a bunch of friendly gamers who are running things because they love gaming. For a large group running MtG tournaments of this scale, they are in it for money. Don't buy tickets, boycott. Or buy from someone else. And in this case, that means working to bring in someone else. If it matter enough to you, go do it. 

Edit: I've never even played MtG, not even once, but a five minute Google turned up StarCityGames, Legion, Cascade, and PES as possible premier tournament organizers to contact. 

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Posted by zaphod brotherbock
#77

brotherbock wrote:
zaphod wrote:
At this point, the delay is 100% on Gen Con LLC.  Past Times submitted their events before event registration began, along with many other companies whose events are still missing.  If it takes weeks to add events that have been submitted , then Gen Con needs to hire more staff.  The entire process is slow, and frankly embarrassing for them.  I keep expecting things to become more professional on their end, but it never happens.  Gen Con as a convention is thriving, so some of that money needs to be invested in more staff that can do their job in a timely manner.

I submitted my events in January, and they only went live in May. I think you have serious misconceptions about what the process takes, as well as misconceptions about how big of a company Gencon is. YOU have defined 'timely' in a way such that this timeline is too slow. How fast should scheduling thousands of events across a dozen venues for sixty thousand people happen? And for hiring new people, how many cooks do you think could work on that same soup? What sort of data are you working with to make those claims? 

The question is not whether I (or anyone) can do better, but why does Gen Con never improve the process?  Every year on these forums the same complaints are made about event registration, the unfairness, the painstakingly slow amount of time it takes events to get posted etc.  Gen Con NEVER makes any attempt to improve themselves, even when the convention is thriving and bringing in thousands of new people every year.  Where is that money going?  Why do we have the same terrible system and slow process year after year?

I'm not criticizing anyone in particular, I'm sure everyone is trying their hardest, but there should be some progression towards improving the experience for their attendees.  Instead, I mostly see GC staff saying "this is the way it is" instead of "this is how we will improve the process".

I love Gen Con, and have been a huge advocate for the convention everywhere that I can be.  However, after 15 years of seeing the same posts and complaints, some blame needs to be placed on them for not trying to make things better.

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Posted by zaphod
#78

Same thing goes for other issues like offering space in the ICC for gaming on Wed.  Every year, many people chiming in this is something that they want.  Every year, staffers say "no", rather than, "we should at least look into this because its obviously something our attendees want".

The convention is thriving and that's great, but I really wish they would listen to their attendees more.

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Posted by njseahawksfan zaphod
#79

zaphod wrote:
brotherbock wrote:
zaphod wrote:
At this point, the delay is 100% on Gen Con LLC.  Past Times submitted their events before event registration began, along with many other companies whose events are still missing.  If it takes weeks to add events that have been submitted , then Gen Con needs to hire more staff.  The entire process is slow, and frankly embarrassing for them.  I keep expecting things to become more professional on their end, but it never happens.  Gen Con as a convention is thriving, so some of that money needs to be invested in more staff that can do their job in a timely manner.

I submitted my events in January, and they only went live in May. I think you have serious misconceptions about what the process takes, as well as misconceptions about how big of a company Gencon is. YOU have defined 'timely' in a way such that this timeline is too slow. How fast should scheduling thousands of events across a dozen venues for sixty thousand people happen? And for hiring new people, how many cooks do you think could work on that same soup? What sort of data are you working with to make those claims? 
 
The question is not whether I (or anyone) can do better, but why does Gen Con never improve the process?  Every year on these forums the same complaints are made about event registration, the unfairness, the painstakingly slow amount of time it takes events to get posted etc.  Gen Con NEVER makes any attempt to improve themselves, even when the convention is thriving and bringing in thousands of new people every year.  Where is that money going?  Why do we have the same terrible system and slow process year after year?I'm not criticizing anyone in particular, I'm sure everyone is trying their hardest, but there should be some progression towards improving the experience for their attendees.  Instead, I mostly see GC staff saying "this is the way it is" instead of "this is how we will improve the process".
I love Gen Con, and have been a huge advocate for the convention everywhere that I can be.  However, after 15 years of seeing the same posts and complaints, some blame needs to be placed on them for not trying to make things better.

So why not address the very simple question put to you ... HOW?  How should GenCon make this process better?  One thing I know about GenCon, and Derek in particular, is that ideas that get suggested on these boards are taken seriously and many of them have become reality.  So instead of throwing stones, and making this thread a giant gripe session, why not make suggestions?  If you were GenCon, how would you handle this Pasttimes/schedule debacle?

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Posted by jfrazier12
#80

So how do I kill this thread I started.. I just asked a simple question. 

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Posted by jmiller1138 jfrazier12
#81

jfrazier12 wrote:
So how do I kill this thread I started.. I just asked a simple question. 

As soon as Derek sees that it's no longer productive he will kill it.  I personally feel my concerns have been heard by the event staff and am only subscribing to this thread so I can get updates on the progress of MTG events.

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Posted by donaldbain zaphod
#82

zaphod wrote:
Same thing goes for other issues like offering space in the ICC for gaming on Wed.  Every year, many people chiming in this is something that they want.  Every year, staffers say "no", rather than, "we should at least look into this because its obviously something our attendees want".
The convention is thriving and that's great, but I really wish they would listen to their attendees more.

Or are the staffers saying "we've looked into it and it not something that we're able to do, so no."?   Just because you're not privy to the discussion or don't like the answer doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.

 

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Posted by zaphod njseahawksfan
#83

njseahawksfan wrote:
zaphod wrote:
brotherbock wrote:
zaphod wrote:
At this point, the delay is 100% on Gen Con LLC.  Past Times submitted their events before event registration began, along with many other companies whose events are still missing.  If it takes weeks to add events that have been submitted , then Gen Con needs to hire more staff.  The entire process is slow, and frankly embarrassing for them.  I keep expecting things to become more professional on their end, but it never happens.  Gen Con as a convention is thriving, so some of that money needs to be invested in more staff that can do their job in a timely manner.

I submitted my events in January, and they only went live in May. I think you have serious misconceptions about what the process takes, as well as misconceptions about how big of a company Gencon is. YOU have defined 'timely' in a way such that this timeline is too slow. How fast should scheduling thousands of events across a dozen venues for sixty thousand people happen? And for hiring new people, how many cooks do you think could work on that same soup? What sort of data are you working with to make those claims? 
 
The question is not whether I (or anyone) can do better, but why does Gen Con never improve the process?  Every year on these forums the same complaints are made about event registration, the unfairness, the painstakingly slow amount of time it takes events to get posted etc.  Gen Con NEVER makes any attempt to improve themselves, even when the convention is thriving and bringing in thousands of new people every year.  Where is that money going?  Why do we have the same terrible system and slow process year after year?I'm not criticizing anyone in particular, I'm sure everyone is trying their hardest, but there should be some progression towards improving the experience for their attendees.  Instead, I mostly see GC staff saying "this is the way it is" instead of "this is how we will improve the process".
I love Gen Con, and have been a huge advocate for the convention everywhere that I can be.  However, after 15 years of seeing the same posts and complaints, some blame needs to be placed on them for not trying to make things better.

So why not address the very simple question put to you ... HOW?  How should GenCon make this process better?  One thing I know about GenCon, and Derek in particular, is that ideas that get suggested on these boards are taken seriously and many of them have become reality.  So instead of throwing stones, and making this thread a giant gripe session, why not make suggestions?  If you were GenCon, how would you handle this Pasttimes/schedule debacle?

That's exactly what this thread is about!  And its also what the other threads in the forums are discussing.  Many attendees are making their arguments for why and how Gen Con should change their approach to event registration, Wed night gaming, and other areas that could use improvement.  These same threads happen year after year, but the suggestions are never internalized by Gen Con.  That's exactly my point.  I am not throwing stones or griping.  But when the same topics come up year after year, with the same suggestions (round robin event registration, space in the ICC for events, ensuring the Magic events are posted on time) being made, then surely these are things that need to be addressed. 

I think many of you are lacking the historical perspective.  We've had these same discussions for so many years, and nothing has ever changed.  The lack of change is particularly jarring considering the success of the convention in recent years.

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Posted by derekguder donaldbain
#84

donaldbain wrote:
zaphod wrote:
Same thing goes for other issues like offering space in the ICC for gaming on Wed.  Every year, many people chiming in this is something that they want.  Every year, staffers say "no", rather than, "we should at least look into this because its obviously something our attendees want".
The convention is thriving and that's great, but I really wish they would listen to their attendees more.

Or are the staffers saying "we've looked into it and it not something that we're able to do, so no."?   Just because you're not privy to the discussion or don't like the answer doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed. 

Actually, we have addressed this directly.

Allowing public events in the convention center on Wednesday would require changing our contract with the convention center: there are dates specified for setup and as "show dates." Earlier events would require pushing all setup that much earlier as well, and thus we would need more hotel rooms earlier, etc.

Basically, making Wednesday an official 5th day would come at a huge cost. There's no way around that.

And this is something I've only seen request for from a specific handful of people (setting aside the usual, undirected cries of "I wish the exhibit hall way open another day" which is itself a whole other can of worms). Further, attendance at the Wednesday events we do have is certainly not bursting at the seems yet.

So we have looked at it and we've discussed that with folks, and it's not feasible at this time or as a general direction for expansion.

Either way, this thread needs to turn in the direction of discussing something new or it'll have to be locked.

And honestly, if you want to have a general thread about specific ideas you have on how to handle late event submissions, it would be better to start a specific thread about that.

This thread should remain focused on Magic events in particular. But stop just repeating the same arguments, demands, or complaints.

-
Derek Guder
Event Manager
Gen Con LLC

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Posted by brotherbock zaphod
#85

zaphod wrote:
That's exactly what this thread is about!  And its also what the other threads in the forums are discussing.  Many attendees are making their arguments for why and how Gen Con should change their approach to event registration, Wed night gaming, and other areas that could use improvement.  These same threads happen year after year, but the suggestions are never internalized by Gen Con.  That's exactly my point.  I am not throwing stones or griping.  But when the same topics come up year after year, with the same suggestions (round robin event registration, space in the ICC for events, ensuring the Magic events are posted on time) being made, then surely these are things that need to be addressed. I think many of you are lacking the historical perspective.  We've had these same discussions for so many years, and nothing has ever changed.  The lack of change is particularly jarring considering the success of the convention in recent years.

First, if you want some resolution, stop saying 'never', as in "Gencon never listens". It's patently false, and only makes people defensive and not want to listen to you. Conflict resolution 101. Gencon has listened to attendees in the past, numerous times. (Back when there was no ticketed Wed gaming at all. Back when they changed the housing system to the current and improved lottery. Back when they dropped the terrible idea of VIG-only vendor hall access eating into regular attendee vendor hall access. Back when they instituted Premier Game Groups. I could go on.) Say instead "Gencon has not done what I want them to do in this instance". That much is true. 

Second...yes, we know that this thread has derailed into a discussion about what can be done to fix it. But the fact remains that YOU are still offering yourself neither data about how many people are complaining, or suggested solutions. YOU are only complaining. It's not enough that you recognize that problems need to be found. Stop wringing your hands and find some yourself. Hell, I don't even play MtG and I've offered solutions. 

Data, and suggestions. No one will listen to you if you refuse to acknowledge that Gencon has listened to people in the past. No one will listen unless you PROVE that there are more people than just the handful here who are unhappy enough for something to be done. And no one will listen if you don't try to help the situation positively yourself. 

Have YOU contacted Pastimes directly? Maybe they will care if a customer contacts them. Or maybe you'll discover how difficult they are, and have a better perspective on what Gencon is dealing with. I don't know. But neither do you. Stop running your fingers until you try to find out some info, and people will listen to you more. 

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Posted by xanathon brotherbock
#86

brotherbock wrote:
zaphod wrote:
That's exactly what this thread is about!  And its also what the other threads in the forums are discussing.  Many attendees are making their arguments for why and how Gen Con should change their approach to event registration, Wed night gaming, and other areas that could use improvement.  These same threads happen year after year, but the suggestions are never internalized by Gen Con.  That's exactly my point.  I am not throwing stones or griping.  But when the same topics come up year after year, with the same suggestions (round robin event registration, space in the ICC for events, ensuring the Magic events are posted on time) being made, then surely these are things that need to be addressed. I think many of you are lacking the historical perspective.  We've had these same discussions for so many years, and nothing has ever changed.  The lack of change is particularly jarring considering the success of the convention in recent years.

First, if you want some resolution, stop saying 'never', as in "Gencon never listens". It's patently false, and only makes people defensive and not want to listen to you. Conflict resolution 101. Gencon has listened to attendees in the past, numerous times. (Back when there was no ticketed Wed gaming at all. Back when they changed the housing system to the current and improved lottery. Back when they dropped the terrible idea of VIG-only vendor hall access eating into regular attendee vendor hall access. Back when they instituted Premier Game Groups. I could go on.) Say instead "Gencon has not done what I want them to do in this instance". That much is true. Second...yes, we know that this thread has derailed into a discussion about what can be done to fix it. But the fact remains that YOU are still offering yourself neither data about how many people are complaining, or suggested solutions. YOU are only complaining. It's not enough that you recognize that problems need to be found. Stop wringing your hands and find some yourself. Hell, I don't even play MtG and I've offered solutions. 
Data, and suggestions. No one will listen to you if you refuse to acknowledge that Gencon has listened to people in the past. No one will listen unless you PROVE that there are more people than just the handful here who are unhappy enough for something to be done. And no one will listen if you don't try to help the situation positively yourself. 
Have YOU contacted Pastimes directly? Maybe they will care if a customer contacts them. Or maybe you'll discover how difficult they are, and have a better perspective on what Gencon is dealing with. I don't know. But neither do you. Stop running your fingers until you try to find out some info, and people will listen to you more."

Does anyone else fine it funny that a person that doesn't play Magic is one of the most vocal about telling everyone else what to do even though they have no idea what our complaints actually are or anything about Pastimes and how they do not listen to constructive criticism.

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Posted by xanathon
#87

Since brotherbock doesn't play Magic or really have any understanding of what we are actually trying to say let me enlighten you.

This has been an ongoing issue for the last couple of years.  Pastimes does not get their events in when the event listing goes live.  I know I have sent emails to them about this, but never received a response.  I can't say for certain if this has happened to anyone else, but my guess is it has.

As for their running of their events they are horribly inefficient in running them.  They never start on time.

My reason for voicing my complaints here is the convention is called GenCon and GenCon has the ability to make changes when they believe changes need to be made.

I do not understand with continuing a relationship with a vendor that can't submit their events by the deadline for them to be in to make the event listing going live and has had complaints about how they run events.  Especially when there are other companies that can run the Magic events.

Brotherbock I recommend that you stick to what you have some level of knowledge on.  While what you have offered has some a little bit of merit you are clearly just defending GenCon because you believe they are without any fault and can do nothing wrong.  It is clear that you don't understand that people could be complaining because they want to see some changes in the Magic events and since you neither play the game or understand anything having to do with the game I suggest that you stick to what you do understand.

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Posted by marimaccadmin
#88

Xanathon,

Both I and Derek have told you that A. Gen Con will always take late submitted events as space allows, as it benefits our attendees and B. Gen Con has no ability to force any company or gaming group to submit events, on time, or late, or at all.

Neither of these facts will change.

Derek asked you to refrain from the same repeated arguments, and it seems you cannot, so, we will lock the thread at this time.

Marian McBrine
Event Coordinator
Gen Con LLC
 

This topic is locked. New posts cannot be added.
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