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Posted by njseahawksfan gharris
#501

gharris wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
squirecam wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
 

The anniversary probably bumped the inevitable forward a year or two, but looking at the attendance growth over the past few years we were going to be close to hitting that cap soon anyways. Without doing something to reduce attendance the extra demand beyond that cap will continue to grow, badges will sell out earlier and earlier, and more and more people will not be able to attend. Look at registration and housing for SDCC- realistically if something doesn't change that will be us an a few years, and gamers will be getting crowded out of "The Greatest Four Days in Gaming".
Your assumption is based on suspect data.  Attendance had leveled off immediately preceding the 50th.  It is equally likely that this year is the outlier and that attendance will go back to what it was before the 50th.  Neither you nor I know what's going to happen in the future and there is data to support both conjectures.  Luckily for both of us, we have 3 more years of data upcoming to see what's going to happen before GenCon has to make a decision.
But it has not leveled off. It still increased. It might go down from this year's new record, but its unlikely to drop below 60,000. Moe likely is that it continues to rise.
Gen Con 2016, which for the first time featured more than 500 exhibitors and an expansion into Lucas Oil Stadium, continued a seven-year streak of record turnstile attendance with 201,852 attendees, up 2.5% from 2015 attendance. Unique attendance remained nearly flat, ending at 60,819. Unique 4-Day Badge holders increased 4% year over year.

Your cited reference above seems to say that it leveled off ... "attendance remained nearly flat".In any case, my point is that you may think it's more likely to rise, but there is an argument to be made that it had peaked and that this year is special just because it's the 50th.  I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying neither of us can know the answer until at least next year.

Even if we disregard the anniversary effect this year, and we "only" had 4% growth this year and another 4% growth on growth next year we still would have probably hit the cap. Gen Con was pretty swamped last year. As Austicke already noted this was an increase in attendance even when there was a spike in badge prices.
I'm not sure why you expect growth at all is my point.  Attendance actually decreased slightly from 2015 to 2016.  That could be the beginning of a trend.  It also could be an outlier.  We won't know until 2018

Posted by gharris njseahawksfan
#502

njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population. This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events. 
Housing doesn't need to get better next year.  Housing is fine.  There are still hotels available in block.  The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem.  It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size).  It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Swing and a miss. I am staying for free at a friend's house this year.As already pointed out, when people are talking about housing they aren't talking about how great it is to stay by the airport. Attendees have made it very clear that they want a hotel that they can quickly walk back to during the show. Nobody cares that there are overpriced rooms available 7-10 miles away.
Gen Con should curb its numbers so a higher percentage of its attendees can have a better hotel room. This isn't just a "me, me, me" situation, it impacts all of us. 
Somehow I doubt that most people who attend GenCon would be willing to risk not being able to get a pass so that the people who did get a pass could have better rooms. 

That is why Gen Con needs to prioritize. Emphasize gaming, deemphasize nongaming, and you will end up with less nongaming attendance, and your core target audience is less likely to miss out on getting badges and hotel rooms.

Remember, Gen Con has been around for 50 years. It has already solidly shown that it can thrive without catering to nongamers. It has already shown that spouses and children of gamers will still show up. 

Posted by jm.spellslinger gharris
#503

gharris wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population. This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events. 
Housing doesn't need to get better next year.  Housing is fine.  There are still hotels available in block.  The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem.  It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size).  It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Swing and a miss. I am staying for free at a friend's house this year.As already pointed out, when people are talking about housing they aren't talking about how great it is to stay by the airport. Attendees have made it very clear that they want a hotel that they can quickly walk back to during the show. Nobody cares that there are overpriced rooms available 7-10 miles away.
Gen Con should curb its numbers so a higher percentage of its attendees can have a better hotel room. This isn't just a "me, me, me" situation, it impacts all of us. 

This is hilarious! 

There is not enough housing for everyone close to downtown. Without downtown housing, the people wont be happy!

Solution: Ruin the experience for them so they don't want to come at all! 

Genius. 

Posted by gharris mhayward1978
#504

mhayward1978 wrote:

Gen Con has defined itself as a gaming convention for 50 years now. Gaming is the heart and foundation of "The Best Four Days in Gaming". "God Emperor gharris" did not declare this, Gen Con did.
Here's where I see a big problem with your line of reasoning.You seem to be saying: "Because Gen Con is 'The Best Four Days in Gaming', therefore things that are not gaming are due less consideration/promotion/etc. from Gen Con."
This inference is not necessarily so.
Gen Con can be "the best four days in gaming" while also being a broader geek experience.
Consider an analogy: The Kentucky Derby is "The greatest 2 minutes in sports."  And yet it's also famous for:

  • A parade of over the top elegant hats

Cocktails, especially Mint Julep

  • Gambling.

It's also very, very crowded and expensive to attend - hotel rooms cost over $500 a night.Now, imagine someone saying: "The Kentucky Derby is the greatest 2 minutes in sports, it is promoted as such, all these people wearing fancy hats and drinking mint julep and gambling need to clear out so those of us who are here to watch the sport of horse racing can enjoy the greatest 2 minutes in sports!"
Ridiculous, right?
We, and Gen Con, don't have to choose between being "the best four days in gaming" and also being a broader geek culture convention.
Just like the organizers of the Kentucky Derby don't have to choose between being "the best two minutes in sports and being a fun day out for these fashion plates:

Do I really need to explain why puppets, watching Japanese cartoons, comic books, and playing dress up outside of a LARP are not gaming? Better yet, can you explain why they ARE? 

As discussed above, whether or not they are gaming is irrelevant, Gen Con offering fun events that are not gaming does not degrade Gen Con's ability to be the Best Four Days in Gaming one iota.And in any case, this was the root of my objection - I might happen to agree with your categories of gaming.  But you know what?  There are 60,000+ attendees of Gen Con, and they will not all agree on what a game is and what a game is not.
You're picking the easier examples, let me address some more challenging ones:
Is miniature painting a game?
Are seminars games?  Maybe only some of them? What about seminars about game development?  What about seminars by people who podcast about games?  What about seminars on how to enter the gaming industry?
Are scavenger hunts games?
Are artists who make art features in games OK?  
What about an auction that sells games? 
What about social deduction games?  Physical games like cornhole bean bag toss?
What about sports - are those games?  Should Gen Con kick out Artists Alley and add a big Indianapolis Colts exhibit?  Football is a game, right?
I think it's pretty clear that even if we accepted the false idea that we have to identify what a "game" is and what is not, there is going to be a lot of gray area.
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population.

What I want, is for Gen Con to be the funnest time for the most people, and be commercially successful enough that it stays in business, and that the exhibitors who I like keep attending.Maybe your narrow focus on housing is why we're coming to different ideas about what is in Gen Cons interest.
I have to agree - reducing attendance would make housing better.
Better be careful we don't reduce it to zero - cause housing would be so easy - but I wouldn't be happy about it.

This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events. 
There is no need to apologize for saying that a gaming convention should have gamers and gaming as its primary focus. This isn't the irrational ravings of "God Emperor gharris", this is what you expect from a gaming convention. 
The alternative is to keep having bad housing experiences for years to come. So what do you want? Keep the fluff and continue to have bad housing or start trimming the fluff and give attendees a better experience on housing day?
Note that Gen Con doesn't actually need fluff events to thrive. Yes, I said fluff because that is what nongaming events that inflate attendance at a gaming convention are. Gen Con repeatedly outgrew its previous homes, including the city of Milwaukee, with a minimum of fluff- keep in mind the Spa program didn't even exist until 2006.
 
I reject your premise that it is in Gen Con, or the general attendees best interest to reduce attendance.But granting that, I reject your premise that if attendance reduction is a goal it necessarily follows that any particular category or categories of events must be cut.
But granting that, I reject your premise that you have correctly identified the categories to be cut.
Your whole argument seems to be: "I'm unhappy about the housing situation, I think the best solution is to reduce attendance, I think Gen Con should eliminate the attendees who participate in events I don't care for."  
Sad.

Regarding your Kentucky Derby analogy, you left off a key part. Regardless of the hats, gambling, and the mint julips people are there to watch a race. A more appropriate analogy would be if the time for the race came along but there were massive amounts of empty seats- because people who didn't care about racing were off getting drunk off mint julips while wearing fancy hats. On top of this, you would have to mention that these drunks were buying up tickets that people that actually wanted to watch the race could have gotten. NOW you have an appropriate Kentucky Derby analogy!

Regarding your attempt to show grey areas for gaming, it is quite simple. Directly related to gaming, in, not directly related or only superficially related, out. 

Painting pieces so they can be used for a game? In! Especially as Gen Con was founded by a bunch of miniature wargamers.

Seminars about making games or getting into making games? In! 

Seminars about podcasting about games? In, but that is probably the line.

Scavenger hunts are games.

Artists who make the art for games? In! Without these people we have no games!

Auction? Seriously? In! You are buying and selling games.

Are you asking whether a social deduction game is a game? Obviously in.

I am not sure if I want to know what a cornhole bean bag toss is.

Sports that require a large field are obviously out. No football. We have a specific niche for gaming, we are not professional sports, we are not the Olympics. 

Well, that was easy. Where were the grey areas?

So, down to what you want. Gen Con is exceeding its ability to be the funnest time for everyone. Simply put, we have run out of room for everyone. Mind you, I don't disagree with wanting as many people as possible to have a good time, we just don't have the room. Gen Con as a company did have problems with the whole Star Wars thing, but Gen Con as a convention has no issues with making money, it is commercially successful. As to vendors? Gaming vendors are more likely to attend a show that keeps its primary focus on gaming- that is their market. Gaming vendors have less to gain by attending a large, expensive show if a significant chunk of those attendees don't care about gaming- we see this effect with comic book vendors at "comic book" shows that have basically just become pop culture and cosplay shows.

I see that you rejected some of my premises, but you didn't actually show them to be wrong. And the whole eliminating attendees for events that I don't care for (which, by your standards, is "sad") nonsense- my wife and I have actually participated in several Spa events and even an Anime event. We are taking part in a nongaming event again this year. I actually like a lot of the nongaming events. I am also not using the housing this year, I am staying at a friend's house for free. I am simply able to look past myself to see that there are bigger issues here. I don't mind that you disagree with me, I do mind if you base those disagreements on incorrect assumptions about me.

Posted by squirecam austicke
#505

austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

Posted by jm.spellslinger gharris
#506

gharris wrote:
mhayward1978 wrote:

Gen Con has defined itself as a gaming convention for 50 years now. Gaming is the heart and foundation of "The Best Four Days in Gaming". "God Emperor gharris" did not declare this, Gen Con did.
Here's where I see a big problem with your line of reasoning.You seem to be saying: "Because Gen Con is 'The Best Four Days in Gaming', therefore things that are not gaming are due less consideration/promotion/etc. from Gen Con."
This inference is not necessarily so.
Gen Con can be "the best four days in gaming" while also being a broader geek experience.
Consider an analogy: The Kentucky Derby is "The greatest 2 minutes in sports."  And yet it's also famous for:

  • A parade of over the top elegant hats

Cocktails, especially Mint Julep


  • Gambling.

It's also very, very crowded and expensive to attend - hotel rooms cost over $500 a night.Now, imagine someone saying: "The Kentucky Derby is the greatest 2 minutes in sports, it is promoted as such, all these people wearing fancy hats and drinking mint julep and gambling need to clear out so those of us who are here to watch the sport of horse racing can enjoy the greatest 2 minutes in sports!"
Ridiculous, right?
We, and Gen Con, don't have to choose between being "the best four days in gaming" and also being a broader geek culture convention.
Just like the organizers of the Kentucky Derby don't have to choose between being "the best two minutes in sports and being a fun day out for these fashion plates:
Do I really need to explain why puppets, watching Japanese cartoons, comic books, and playing dress up outside of a LARP are not gaming? Better yet, can you explain why they ARE? 

As discussed above, whether or not they are gaming is irrelevant, Gen Con offering fun events that are not gaming does not degrade Gen Con's ability to be the Best Four Days in Gaming one iota.And in any case, this was the root of my objection - I might happen to agree with your categories of gaming.  But you know what?  There are 60,000+ attendees of Gen Con, and they will not all agree on what a game is and what a game is not.
You're picking the easier examples, let me address some more challenging ones:
Is miniature painting a game?
Are seminars games?  Maybe only some of them? What about seminars about game development?  What about seminars by people who podcast about games?  What about seminars on how to enter the gaming industry?
Are scavenger hunts games?
Are artists who make art features in games OK?  
What about an auction that sells games? 
What about social deduction games?  Physical games like cornhole bean bag toss?
What about sports - are those games?  Should Gen Con kick out Artists Alley and add a big Indianapolis Colts exhibit?  Football is a game, right?
I think it's pretty clear that even if we accepted the false idea that we have to identify what a "game" is and what is not, there is going to be a lot of gray area.
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population.

What I want, is for Gen Con to be the funnest time for the most people, and be commercially successful enough that it stays in business, and that the exhibitors who I like keep attending.Maybe your narrow focus on housing is why we're coming to different ideas about what is in Gen Cons interest.
I have to agree - reducing attendance would make housing better.
Better be careful we don't reduce it to zero - cause housing would be so easy - but I wouldn't be happy about it.

This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events. 
There is no need to apologize for saying that a gaming convention should have gamers and gaming as its primary focus. This isn't the irrational ravings of "God Emperor gharris", this is what you expect from a gaming convention. 
The alternative is to keep having bad housing experiences for years to come. So what do you want? Keep the fluff and continue to have bad housing or start trimming the fluff and give attendees a better experience on housing day?
Note that Gen Con doesn't actually need fluff events to thrive. Yes, I said fluff because that is what nongaming events that inflate attendance at a gaming convention are. Gen Con repeatedly outgrew its previous homes, including the city of Milwaukee, with a minimum of fluff- keep in mind the Spa program didn't even exist until 2006.
 
I reject your premise that it is in Gen Con, or the general attendees best interest to reduce attendance.But granting that, I reject your premise that if attendance reduction is a goal it necessarily follows that any particular category or categories of events must be cut.
But granting that, I reject your premise that you have correctly identified the categories to be cut.
Your whole argument seems to be: "I'm unhappy about the housing situation, I think the best solution is to reduce attendance, I think Gen Con should eliminate the attendees who participate in events I don't care for."  
Sad.

Regarding your Kentucky Derby analogy, you left off a key part. Regardless of the hats, gambling, and the mint julips people are there to watch a race. A more appropriate analogy would be if the time for the race came along but there were massive amounts of empty seats- because people who didn't care about racing were off getting drunk off mint julips while wearing fancy hats. On top of this, you would have to mention that these drunks were buying up tickets that people that actually wanted to watch the race could have gotten. NOW you have an appropriate Kentucky Derby analogy!Regarding your attempt to show grey areas for gaming, it is quite simple. Directly related to gaming, in, not directly related or only superficially related, out. 
Painting pieces so they can be used for a game? In! Especially as Gen Con was founded by a bunch of miniature wargamers.
Seminars about making games or getting into making games? In! 
Seminars about podcasting about games? In, but that is probably the line.
Scavenger hunts are games.
Artists who make the art for games? In! Without these people we have no games!
Auction? Seriously? In! You are buying and selling games.
Are you asking whether a social deduction game is a game? Obviously in.
I am not sure if I want to know what a cornhole bean bag toss is.
Sports that require a large field are obviously out. No football. We have a specific niche for gaming, we are not professional sports, we are not the Olympics. 
Well, that was easy. Where were the grey areas?
So, down to what you want. Gen Con is exceeding its ability to be the funnest time for everyone. Simply put, we have run out of room for everyone. Mind you, I don't disagree with wanting as many people as possible to have a good time, we just don't have the room. Gen Con as a company did have problems with the whole Star Wars thing, but Gen Con as a convention has no issues with making money, it is commercially successful. As to vendors? Gaming vendors are more likely to attend a show that keeps its primary focus on gaming- that is their market. Gaming vendors have less to gain by attending a large, expensive show if a significant chunk of those attendees don't care about gaming- we see this effect with comic book vendors at "comic book" shows that have basically just become pop culture and cosplay shows.
I see that you rejected some of my premises, but you didn't actually show them to be wrong. And the whole eliminating attendees for events that I don't care for (which, by your standards, is "sad") nonsense- my wife and I have actually participated in several Spa events and even an Anime event. We are taking part in a nongaming event again this year. I actually like a lot of the nongaming events. I am also not using the housing this year, I am staying at a friend's house for free. I am simply able to look past myself to see that there are bigger issues here. I don't mind that you disagree with me, I do mind if you base those disagreements on incorrect assumptions about me.

based on your breakdown of mhayward's example and your "obvious" answers to the questions he posed, you don't seem to be willing to accept reasonable arguments and just want to defend your points to the bitter end.

I think it suffices to say that the majority of people here strongly disagree with your points, and you should consider that you are arguing with Gen Con attendees that care a whole lot. 

Posted by squirecam njseahawksfan
#507

njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
squirecam wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
 

The anniversary probably bumped the inevitable forward a year or two, but looking at the attendance growth over the past few years we were going to be close to hitting that cap soon anyways. Without doing something to reduce attendance the extra demand beyond that cap will continue to grow, badges will sell out earlier and earlier, and more and more people will not be able to attend. Look at registration and housing for SDCC- realistically if something doesn't change that will be us an a few years, and gamers will be getting crowded out of "The Greatest Four Days in Gaming".
Your assumption is based on suspect data.  Attendance had leveled off immediately preceding the 50th.  It is equally likely that this year is the outlier and that attendance will go back to what it was before the 50th.  Neither you nor I know what's going to happen in the future and there is data to support both conjectures.  Luckily for both of us, we have 3 more years of data upcoming to see what's going to happen before GenCon has to make a decision.
But it has not leveled off. It still increased. It might go down from this year's new record, but its unlikely to drop below 60,000. Moe likely is that it continues to rise.
Gen Con 2016, which for the first time featured more than 500 exhibitors and an expansion into Lucas Oil Stadium, continued a seven-year streak of record turnstile attendance with 201,852 attendees, up 2.5% from 2015 attendance. Unique attendance remained nearly flat, ending at 60,819. Unique 4-Day Badge holders increased 4% year over year.

Your cited reference above seems to say that it leveled off ... "attendance remained nearly flat".In any case, my point is that you may think it's more likely to rise, but there is an argument to be made that it had peaked and that this year is special just because it's the 50th.  I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying neither of us can know the answer until at least next year.

Even if we disregard the anniversary effect this year, and we "only" had 4% growth this year and another 4% growth on growth next year we still would have probably hit the cap. Gen Con was pretty swamped last year. As Austicke already noted this was an increase in attendance even when there was a spike in badge prices.
I'm not sure why you expect growth at all is my point.  Attendance actually decreased slightly from 2015 to 2016.  That could be the beginning of a trend.  It also could be an outlier.  We won't know until 2018
Unique attendance was slightly down. Turnstile attendance increased (up 2.5%). Could be single day badge holders attending for additional days.

In any event, one small "flat" year does not signal a downward trend when the history since 08 has been substantial growth.
 

Posted by jm.spellslinger squirecam
#508

squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

Posted by jm.spellslinger squirecam
#509

squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

Posted by gharris jm.spellslinger
#510

jm.spellslinger wrote:
squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

And prohibitively expensive. It would be nice if it could work, but think of how many vehicles would have to be bought, the insurance, the labor, the gas and maintenance both during the con and the rest of the year, storage for the other 51 weeks.....

Posted by squirecam gharris
#511

gharris wrote:
jm.spellslinger wrote:
squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

And prohibitively expensive. It would be nice if it could work, but think of how many vehicles would have to be bought, the insurance, the labor, the gas and maintenance both during the con and the rest of the year, storage for the other 51 weeks.....
You dont create a shuttle program for 52 weeks. You hire multiple companies to make it work for 1 week, if one company isnt enough.

60,000 x 10.00 = 600k. Are you saying Gencon couldn't find enough vehicles and drivers for $550,000 (Gencon keeps 50k as "profit")?

Would a company pass up half a million dollars for a half week of work?

 

Posted by gharris jm.spellslinger
#512

jm.spellslinger wrote:
 

based on your breakdown of mhayward's example and your "obvious" answers to the questions he posed, you don't seem to be willing to accept reasonable arguments and just want to defend your points to the bitter end.I think it suffices to say that the majority of people here strongly disagree with your points, and you should consider that you are arguing with Gen Con attendees that care a whole lot. 

I'm perfectly willing to listen to "reasonable" arguments if they make sense.

The example about the Kentucky Derby fell flat because he left out a key point- despite the gambling, hats and booze everyone is there to watch the race. That is different from discussing a population of people who are attending an event that don't care about the main theme of the event. Cute picture though.

The answers were "obvious" because he used examples that were directly related to making, part of the gaming industry, or were actually games. That is not showing a grey area. The one oddball one was the football one- do we really have to go over why football is not our niche of gaming, let alone why we should not have an event that literally requires an area the size of a football field to play?

The problem here was that the examples were faulty. Well presented, but faulty.

Pointing out that changes may need to be made to what has been perceived as the status quo in the past few years isn't supposed to be easy. We hit a population tipping point this year. Change will happen regardless. 
 

Posted by gharris squirecam
#513

squirecam wrote:
gharris wrote:
jm.spellslinger wrote:
squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

And prohibitively expensive. It would be nice if it could work, but think of how many vehicles would have to be bought, the insurance, the labor, the gas and maintenance both during the con and the rest of the year, storage for the other 51 weeks.....
You dont create a shuttle program for 52 weeks. You hire multiple companies to make it work for 1 week, if one company isnt enough.60,000 x 10.00 = 600k. Are you saying Gencon couldn't find enough vehicles and drivers for $550,000 (Gencon keeps 50k as "profit)?
Would a company pass up half a million dollars for a half week of work?
 

If you could theoretically find a company with enough available vehicles to avoid this becoming another cluster**** like it was the last time we had a shuttle system, sure. Keep in mind that demand has increased since that time so you need to hire a lot of vehicles running continuously for 4-5 days. 

If it were that easy wouldn't we already have a shuttle system?

Posted by jm.spellslinger gharris
#514

gharris wrote:
jm.spellslinger wrote:
 

based on your breakdown of mhayward's example and your "obvious" answers to the questions he posed, you don't seem to be willing to accept reasonable arguments and just want to defend your points to the bitter end.I think it suffices to say that the majority of people here strongly disagree with your points, and you should consider that you are arguing with Gen Con attendees that care a whole lot. 

I'm perfectly willing to listen to "reasonable" arguments if they make sense.The example about the Kentucky Derby fell flat because he left out a key point- despite the gambling, hats and booze everyone is there to watch the race. That is different from discussing a population of people who are attending an event that don't care about the main theme of the event. Cute picture though.
The answers were "obvious" because he used examples that were directly related to making, part of the gaming industry, or were actually games. That is not showing a grey area. The one oddball one was the football one- do we really have to go over why football is not our niche of gaming, let alone why we should not have an event that literally requires an area the size of a football field to play?
The problem here was that the examples were faulty. Well presented, but faulty.
Pointing out that changes may need to be made to what has been perceived as the status quo in the past few years isn't supposed to be easy. We hit a population tipping point this year. Change will happen regardless. 

So you believe that EVERYONE at the Kentucky Derby cares about the horse race. Really? You believe that? And you also believe that you are the authority to decide that the line for gaming/non-gaming events is "probably" seminars about podcasting about games? And that sports are not games? 
 

Posted by stiehle gharris
#515

gharris wrote:
jm.spellslinger wrote:
 

based on your breakdown of mhayward's example and your "obvious" answers to the questions he posed, you don't seem to be willing to accept reasonable arguments and just want to defend your points to the bitter end.I think it suffices to say that the majority of people here strongly disagree with your points, and you should consider that you are arguing with Gen Con attendees that care a whole lot. 

I'm perfectly willing to listen to "reasonable" arguments if they make sense.The example about the Kentucky Derby fell flat because he left out a key point- despite the gambling, hats and booze everyone is there to watch the race. That is different from discussing a population of people who are attending an event that don't care about the main theme of the event. Cute picture though.
The answers were "obvious" because he used examples that were directly related to making, part of the gaming industry, or were actually games. That is not showing a grey area. The one oddball one was the football one- do we really have to go over why football is not our niche of gaming, let alone why we should not have an event that literally requires an area the size of a football field to play?
The problem here was that the examples were faulty. Well presented, but faulty.
Pointing out that changes may need to be made to what has been perceived as the status quo in the past few years isn't supposed to be easy. We hit a population tipping point this year. Change will happen regardless. 
 

Once again, you fail to acknowledge reasonable arguments, proving you are not willing to listen.  It's YOUR opinion that some percentage of the population don't care about the main theme of the event as YOU have interpreted it to be.  No amount of reasonable arguments (and believe me, there are plenty to be found in this thread alone) are going to sway you, because your opinion of your own interpretation is ironclad.  Bravo for sticking to your guns, I suppose.  Nobody is going to change your opinion, and it's doubtful you're going to change that of others.

Discussion is only interesting when others are willing and able to appreciate the differing points of view and offer thoughtful insights as to alternative ways of thinking - not when it's simply tearing apart another viewpoint as you substitute opinion for fact.  I believe that moment passed by about 15 pages ago...

Posted by jm.spellslinger gharris
#516

gharris wrote:
mhayward1978 wrote:

Gen Con has defined itself as a gaming convention for 50 years now. Gaming is the heart and foundation of "The Best Four Days in Gaming". "God Emperor gharris" did not declare this, Gen Con did.
Here's where I see a big problem with your line of reasoning.You seem to be saying: "Because Gen Con is 'The Best Four Days in Gaming', therefore things that are not gaming are due less consideration/promotion/etc. from Gen Con."
This inference is not necessarily so.
Gen Con can be "the best four days in gaming" while also being a broader geek experience.
Consider an analogy: The Kentucky Derby is "The greatest 2 minutes in sports."  And yet it's also famous for:

  • A parade of over the top elegant hats

Cocktails, especially Mint Julep


  • Gambling.

It's also very, very crowded and expensive to attend - hotel rooms cost over $500 a night.Now, imagine someone saying: "The Kentucky Derby is the greatest 2 minutes in sports, it is promoted as such, all these people wearing fancy hats and drinking mint julep and gambling need to clear out so those of us who are here to watch the sport of horse racing can enjoy the greatest 2 minutes in sports!"
Ridiculous, right?
We, and Gen Con, don't have to choose between being "the best four days in gaming" and also being a broader geek culture convention.
Just like the organizers of the Kentucky Derby don't have to choose between being "the best two minutes in sports and being a fun day out for these fashion plates:
Do I really need to explain why puppets, watching Japanese cartoons, comic books, and playing dress up outside of a LARP are not gaming? Better yet, can you explain why they ARE? 

As discussed above, whether or not they are gaming is irrelevant, Gen Con offering fun events that are not gaming does not degrade Gen Con's ability to be the Best Four Days in Gaming one iota.And in any case, this was the root of my objection - I might happen to agree with your categories of gaming.  But you know what?  There are 60,000+ attendees of Gen Con, and they will not all agree on what a game is and what a game is not.
You're picking the easier examples, let me address some more challenging ones:
Is miniature painting a game?
Are seminars games?  Maybe only some of them? What about seminars about game development?  What about seminars by people who podcast about games?  What about seminars on how to enter the gaming industry?
Are scavenger hunts games?
Are artists who make art features in games OK?  
What about an auction that sells games? 
What about social deduction games?  Physical games like cornhole bean bag toss?
What about sports - are those games?  Should Gen Con kick out Artists Alley and add a big Indianapolis Colts exhibit?  Football is a game, right?
I think it's pretty clear that even if we accepted the false idea that we have to identify what a "game" is and what is not, there is going to be a lot of gray area.
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population.

What I want, is for Gen Con to be the funnest time for the most people, and be commercially successful enough that it stays in business, and that the exhibitors who I like keep attending.Maybe your narrow focus on housing is why we're coming to different ideas about what is in Gen Cons interest.
I have to agree - reducing attendance would make housing better.
Better be careful we don't reduce it to zero - cause housing would be so easy - but I wouldn't be happy about it.

This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events. 
There is no need to apologize for saying that a gaming convention should have gamers and gaming as its primary focus. This isn't the irrational ravings of "God Emperor gharris", this is what you expect from a gaming convention. 
The alternative is to keep having bad housing experiences for years to come. So what do you want? Keep the fluff and continue to have bad housing or start trimming the fluff and give attendees a better experience on housing day?
Note that Gen Con doesn't actually need fluff events to thrive. Yes, I said fluff because that is what nongaming events that inflate attendance at a gaming convention are. Gen Con repeatedly outgrew its previous homes, including the city of Milwaukee, with a minimum of fluff- keep in mind the Spa program didn't even exist until 2006.
 
I reject your premise that it is in Gen Con, or the general attendees best interest to reduce attendance.But granting that, I reject your premise that if attendance reduction is a goal it necessarily follows that any particular category or categories of events must be cut.
But granting that, I reject your premise that you have correctly identified the categories to be cut.
Your whole argument seems to be: "I'm unhappy about the housing situation, I think the best solution is to reduce attendance, I think Gen Con should eliminate the attendees who participate in events I don't care for."  
Sad.

Regarding your Kentucky Derby analogy, you left off a key part. Regardless of the hats, gambling, and the mint julips people are there to watch a race. A more appropriate analogy would be if the time for the race came along but there were massive amounts of empty seats- because people who didn't care about racing were off getting drunk off mint julips while wearing fancy hats. On top of this, you would have to mention that these drunks were buying up tickets that people that actually wanted to watch the race could have gotten. NOW you have an appropriate Kentucky Derby analogy!Regarding your attempt to show grey areas for gaming, it is quite simple. Directly related to gaming, in, not directly related or only superficially related, out. 
Painting pieces so they can be used for a game? In! Especially as Gen Con was founded by a bunch of miniature wargamers.
Seminars about making games or getting into making games? In! 
Seminars about podcasting about games? In, but that is probably the line.
Scavenger hunts are games.
Artists who make the art for games? In! Without these people we have no games!
Auction? Seriously? In! You are buying and selling games.
Are you asking whether a social deduction game is a game? Obviously in.
I am not sure if I want to know what a cornhole bean bag toss is.
Sports that require a large field are obviously out. No football. We have a specific niche for gaming, we are not professional sports, we are not the Olympics. 
Well, that was easy. Where were the grey areas?
So, down to what you want. Gen Con is exceeding its ability to be the funnest time for everyone. Simply put, we have run out of room for everyone. Mind you, I don't disagree with wanting as many people as possible to have a good time, we just don't have the room. Gen Con as a company did have problems with the whole Star Wars thing, but Gen Con as a convention has no issues with making money, it is commercially successful. As to vendors? Gaming vendors are more likely to attend a show that keeps its primary focus on gaming- that is their market. Gaming vendors have less to gain by attending a large, expensive show if a significant chunk of those attendees don't care about gaming- we see this effect with comic book vendors at "comic book" shows that have basically just become pop culture and cosplay shows.
I see that you rejected some of my premises, but you didn't actually show them to be wrong. And the whole eliminating attendees for events that I don't care for (which, by your standards, is "sad") nonsense- my wife and I have actually participated in several Spa events and even an Anime event. We are taking part in a nongaming event again this year. I actually like a lot of the nongaming events. I am also not using the housing this year, I am staying at a friend's house for free. I am simply able to look past myself to see that there are bigger issues here. I don't mind that you disagree with me, I do mind if you base those disagreements on incorrect assumptions about me.

https://www.thrillist.com/lifestyle/louisville/all-the-people-who-go-to-the-kentucky-derby

hmmmmm.......a direct quote from this article states

"Little of the infield experience is actually about the horse race; rather, it's the people-watching. This is where you will find homemade hats of epic proportions, authentic Kentucky rednecks, and a damn fine group of over 60,000 people all crowded together to toast the greatest two minutes in sports (even if they never see a single horse)."

or maybe this quote

"Do a large number of them know anything about horse racing? Probably not. Will they be ordering a hot dog from one of the hundreds of vendors or a batch-made mint julep? HA! Yeah, right.
The Millionaires Row attendees are usually seen lounging on a covered terrace, casually watching the races while dining on gourmet fare and sipping on one of those famous $1,000 (!!) mint juleps. "

To be honest, the whole article is spattered with lines about how many of the Derby attendees don't care much about the actual races. I think the article makes another point that is valid here, too. 

"the Derby is all about tradition."

And so is gen con. Geeky cosplay traditions. Zombie walk traditions. Hawaiian shirt traditions. Giant geeky balloon sculpture traditions. our cardhalla tradition. The con is fun because we have made it our own. The very culture you want to strip away is what makes Gen Con a fun place to be. 
 

Posted by k_dog64 gharris
#517

gharris wrote:
squirecam wrote:
gharris wrote:
jm.spellslinger wrote:
squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

And prohibitively expensive. It would be nice if it could work, but think of how many vehicles would have to be bought, the insurance, the labor, the gas and maintenance both during the con and the rest of the year, storage for the other 51 weeks.....
You dont create a shuttle program for 52 weeks. You hire multiple companies to make it work for 1 week, if one company isnt enough.60,000 x 10.00 = 600k. Are you saying Gencon couldn't find enough vehicles and drivers for $550,000 (Gencon keeps 50k as "profit)?
Would a company pass up half a million dollars for a half week of work?

If you could theoretically find a company with enough available vehicles to avoid this becoming another cluster**** like it was the last time we had a shuttle system, sure. Keep in mind that demand has increased since that time so you need to hire a lot of vehicles running continuously for 4-5 days. If it were that easy wouldn't we already have a shuttle system?
Just a note with regards to this.  I went to E3 this year.  Their shuttle system was a series of charter busses I believe.  They had 8 or so different routes that went to the various hotels within their housing block.  I believe they ran departed the convention center every 10-15 minutes during "peak travel" times and every 30 minutes during the "non-peak" travel times.  I know it is a different type of convention (having set hours vs a 24 hour Gen Con), but it just shows there are some possibilities.  (The shuttles were also free for attendees as long as you were actually staying at one of the hotels.  They gave you a wristband at the hotel when you checked in.) 

Posted by rhone1
#518

This whole forum chain is getting crazy with all the quoted previous entries. 

Posted by squirecam k_dog64
#519

k_dog64 wrote:
gharris wrote:
squirecam wrote:
gharris wrote:
jm.spellslinger wrote:
squirecam wrote:
austicke wrote:
Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.
I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.
Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.
____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group
Why not increase prices but use the extra $ to utilize a workable Gencon shuttle...

This sounds cool

And prohibitively expensive. It would be nice if it could work, but think of how many vehicles would have to be bought, the insurance, the labor, the gas and maintenance both during the con and the rest of the year, storage for the other 51 weeks.....
You dont create a shuttle program for 52 weeks. You hire multiple companies to make it work for 1 week, if one company isnt enough.60,000 x 10.00 = 600k. Are you saying Gencon couldn't find enough vehicles and drivers for $550,000 (Gencon keeps 50k as "profit)?
Would a company pass up half a million dollars for a half week of work?

If you could theoretically find a company with enough available vehicles to avoid this becoming another cluster**** like it was the last time we had a shuttle system, sure. Keep in mind that demand has increased since that time so you need to hire a lot of vehicles running continuously for 4-5 days. If it were that easy wouldn't we already have a shuttle system?
Just a note with regards to this.  I went to E3 this year.  Their shuttle system was a series of charter busses I believe.  They had 8 or so different routes that went to the various hotels within their housing block.  I believe they ran departed the convention center every 10-15 minutes during "peak travel" times and every 30 minutes during the "non-peak" travel times.  I know it is a different type of convention (having set hours vs a 24 hour Gen Con), but it just shows there are some possibilities.  (The shuttles were also free for attendees as long as you were actually staying at one of the hotels.  They gave you a wristband at the hotel when you checked in.) 
Yep. SDCC has more people. Yet they make their shuttle system work.

It takes effort and the desire, but it could be done.

Posted by aaronmlopez squirecam
#520

squirecam wrote:You dont create a shuttle program for 52 weeks. You hire multiple companies to make it work for 1 week, if one company isnt enough.60,000 x 10.00 = 600k. Are you saying Gencon couldn't find enough vehicles and drivers for $550,000 (Gencon keeps 50k as "profit")?
Would a company pass up half a million dollars for a half week of work?
 

You cannot add 60k people to this formula as only about 1/2 would be using the service. But I do agree that a private company that could provide convention services around the country could make bank doing nothing but providing shuttle services during large events all over the US. But if I had about 50 mini-vans I could probably cover Gen Con with routes to outlying hotels every 10 to 15 minutes and charge riders $5 or $10 per ride. I would have to look into the math, but I'm sure I could go from Sakura-Con, Fanime Con, Anime Expo, San Diego Comic-con, Origins, Gen Con, Pax East, Pax West, etc. I may not need all of my vehicles for every convention which would allow me to use some for others at the same time. But at Gen Con, if I was able to transport 15k riders round trip once at $10/per trip (15k x 2 = 30k. 30k X$10/ride =$300k, x 4 days = $1.2 million) I am sure I could make it work. Not sure on the vehicle/fuel/cost/maintenance/insurance/salary part for the drivers and vehicles, but I'm pretty sure it could work. I may have to research this a bit more. Either way, it doesn't make sense for Indianapolis to build its own transportation system that may only be used for one or two weekends a year when a private company may be able to handle this. 

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