Gen Con | Gen Con Indy 2023

Dallas Magazine - Dart Article

 squirecam wrote:
There are others. Dallas, for example has:

2,000,000 Total Square Feet
4,000 hotel rooms within walking distance, including 1,100 at the adjacent Omni Dallas Hotel
4 new restaurants
Onsite DART rail station with covered access to the convention center
Free shuttle bus (DART D-Link, Route 722) to Downtown, Arts District, Uptown, The Cedars, Bishop Arts District, Victory Park, and the West End

So, even though the adjacent room numbers are less, the direct access with rail and shuttles makes it more convenient for everyone else not directly adjacent to the con.There ARE options. If people simply cared enough to look.

That's all well and good until you realize that fewer adjacent hotel rooms means that the transportation system gets overloaded with a larger convention, thus cancelling the theoretical convenience. You also then have to consider how much less space that gives Gencon, as it's already spilled into adjacent hotel conference centers, and an NFL stadium.

The transportation system does NOT get overloaded because it was specifically designed to move masses of people to and from the convention center to hotels. Which is why they have light rail, shuttles etc in the first place.

That's true, transportation systems never get overloaded. It doesn't matter if the Olympics come to town. Public transport NEVER DISAPPOINTS ANYONE.

I don't see your point. A theoretical issue that likely won't arise is somehow worse than a multi year issue which is getting worse?top convention cities have reliable public transport convention attendees can rely on. Indy does not.

Dallas doesn't solve the issue, though. Your 4,000 hotel rooms are within a 10 minute train ride. Indy has over 4000 within a 10 minute walk, at least half adjacent and even more outside that. And Dallas cuts the amount of actual convention space significantly.

Indy has 1.3 million so Dallas is larger space wise. And it has far more hotel rooms within a 10 minute ride. But why let facts get in the way, right?

Just the ICC and Lucas Oil have 1.5m sq ft of space by themselves. Plus a dozen connected hotels and Bankers Life Field House. They add up to more than 2m in space.You should check again how many of those 4000 hotel rooms are in walking distance. It looks like there's about 5 that would be a 10 min ride. Increase that ride to 20 mins and you're up to 10 hotels. By contrast, GenCon has 12 in the skywalk net and 25 in a 5 block radius. The number of hotels in downtown Dallas is an issue even if the DART isn't.

you are not being fair. If you count Indy hotels then you must count Dallas hotel space too. And the 4000 rooms are walking distance. With thousands more within a short ride. Dallas has 77000 hotel rooms. It has great transportation and the city is a very viable alternative to Indy.

But hotel space is not a problem for Indy. There are available hotels within 10 miles right now, and there have been throughout the entire registration process. The main issue for most people is downtown hotel space, and Indy surpasses Dallas in that regard. I also think that you "not believing" in Uber/Lyft is a personal issue that almost no one else has a problem with. Uber/Lyft have pretty much completely solved the Indy transportation issue.

No, Uber has not completely solved the transportation issue. It is this kind of nonsense that stops reasonable measures from being implemented.If you have four to 6 people staying at a hotel on different schedules, then that is 4-6 times Uber surge pricing two trips for 4 days. Not very convenient or cost effective.
EVERY TOP CONVENTION CITY HAS EASY AND RELIABLE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION TO THEIR CONVENTION CENTER.
Indy does not. Nor does anyone seem interested in building it. That is a problem.

You seem to have proven yourself wrong

Posted by squirecam

#427

There is not a 20 minute wait. Expedia lists several hotels within a few miles of the convention center. Its not like all the hotels are 15 miles away.

Yes, the purpose of the DART system is so that the hotels not near the convention center are connected by the system. There are multiple trains going the same direction along major stops with hotels. So the red and blue lines, for example have multiple trains so that you are not waiting 20 minutes.

Again, many of these hotels are already downtown. Imagine if Indy had a rail station that roughly stopped at monument circle and then at Lucas Oil. That's several of these hotels, only a stop or 2 away.

Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Posted by jm.spellslinger squirecam

#428

 squirecam wrote:
There is not a 20 minute wait. Expedia lists several hotels within a few miles of the convention center. Its not like all the hotels are 15 miles away.
Yes, the purpose of the DART system is so that the hotels not near the convention center are connected by the system. There are multiple trains going the same direction along major stops with hotels. So the red and blue lines, for example have multiple trains so that you are not waiting 20 minutes.
Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

How many people have you found on the forums in need of a hotel room within a few miles of the ICC? People want to walk a few blocks at most. they want to put bags in their room and get back quickly. They want to change costumes and get back quickly. You are missing the major gripe that everyone has with the current situation and trying to convince everyone how great it will be to take a train to and from a hotel that's only a few miles away.

Posted by stiehle squirecam

#429

 squirecam wrote:Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Not everyone seems to agree with this statement...

Posted by jm.spellslinger stiehle

#430

 squirecam wrote:Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Not everyone seems to agree with this statement...Dallas Magazine - Dart Article

Buses are a nightmare when 60k+ people want to get to the same location around the same time, and leave around the same time. This became very apparent to me when i used the shuttle system at gen con, which fully expected the masses and was dedicated solely to their transport and not the residents on IN

Posted by squirecam jm.spellslinger

#431

If you want to walk a few blocks at most then Indy does not work. Not for the majority of attendees.

If you take a train to the convention center and it drops you off right outside, then you walk 0 blocks.

Its a public transport option we dont have now. And wont have in Indy.

Posted by squirecam jm.spellslinger

#432

 squirecam wrote:Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Not everyone seems to agree with this statement...Dallas Magazine - Dart Article

Yes, the shuttle WAS awful. Why?

Because they had small bus seating capacity and even though you scheduled for 7 am the night before, walk-ups or people from other hotels filled those slots, sometimes before the bus even got to your hotel on the route. It was awful. They clearly did NOT properly plan the system, nor run it well.

None of those things happen with a DART train. No one is cutting in line, and there are multiple lines that run. So you dont have one small shuttle an hour. You have many train cars multiple times running.

Is it perfect? No. But its an option we wont have in Indy.

And if you dont want to take the train, the convention center and hotels also have free shuttles. So thats even more options.

Posted by roganca jm.spellslinger

#433

 squirecam wrote:Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Not everyone seems to agree with this statement...Dallas Magazine - Dart Article

Nope. According to this argument buses are MAGIC.

Posted by jm.spellslinger roganca

#434

 roganca wrote:

 squirecam wrote:Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Not everyone seems to agree with this statement...Dallas Magazine - Dart Article

Nope. According to this argument buses are MAGIC.

I literally waited three bus cycles both going to and from the ICC the first day, at which point I asked for a refund. I never received one. I just drove in and paid for parking every day. it was fine.

Posted by jm.spellslinger squirecam

#435

 squirecam wrote:Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

Not everyone seems to agree with this statement...Dallas Magazine - Dart Article

Yes, the shuttle WAS awful. Why?Because they had small bus seating capacity and even though you scheduled for 7 am the night before, walk-ups or people from other hotels filled those slots, sometimes before the bus even got to your hotel on the route. It was awful. They clearly did NOT properly plan the system, nor run it well.
None of those things happen with a DART train. No one is cutting in line, and there are multiple lines that run. So you dont have one small shuttle an hour. You have many train cars multiple times running.
Is it perfect? No. But its an option we wont have in Indy.
And if you dont want to take the train, the convention center and hotels also have free shuttles. So thats even more options.

You are a difficult person to have a discussion with. Good luck with transportation if you are attending this year.

Posted by sakurawinters squirecam

#436

While I can't answer to every city, I live in Chicago. We are in the top 5 in most of the "Best Convention Cities" lists I looked at. We have two different centers and I nerd convention hard at both of them.

I would never consider the public transportation of either location to be 'easy and reliable' for the specific needs of Gen Con. It's okay(local shudder for local issues) for regular conventions, but not for Gen Con.

We are an odd con with needs outside what most convention cities anticipate.
1. We are a 24 hour con; we can't have stoppage after midnight.
2. There is no rigid schedule; so we would need continuous service.
3. The need for extra space (be it for cosplay, miniature armies, dealer room haul or game prep); so really busses and trains only seat about half the people.
4. We like, we like to party (or at least go out to eat); if the area near the convention center isn't hopping with options, we need the public transportation to take us there. Can I get back to the hotel with public trans from the restaurant or do I have to back to the center to get to my hotel?

That's a list that requires a robust system, that I know, personally, Chicago doesn't have for McCormick Place or Stephens Center and makes me curious about other top convention cities. I think for most people, if a city's public transportation can't handle the above list, they are going to do what we do in Indy now, drive themselves or Uber/Lyft.

Posted by ryanjamison squirecam

#437

 squirecam wrote:
There is not a 20 minute wait. Expedia lists several hotels within a few miles of the convention center. Its not like all the hotels are 15 miles away.
Yes, the purpose of the DART system is so that the hotels not near the convention center are connected by the system. There are multiple trains going the same direction along major stops with hotels. So the red and blue lines, for example have multiple trains so that you are not waiting 20 minutes.
Again, many of these hotels are already downtown. Imagine if Indy had a rail station that roughly stopped at monument circle and then at Lucas Oil. That's several of these hotels, only a stop or 2 away.
Just take a look at the DART map if you care to learn. Its a pretty good system.

When I posted last night, Google maps showed the ETA from the Dallas con center to the Dallas westin city center at 20 minutes. Thats one of the closest dozen or so. Bus systems do not run at 100% capacity 24/7. One of the benefits of closer hotels is not having to rely on them.

Posted by ryanjamison squirecam

#438

If you want to walk a few blocks at most then Indy does not work. Not for the majority of attendees.If you take a train to the convention center and it drops you off right outside, then you walk 0 blocks.
Its a public transport option we dont have now. And wont have in Indy.

Indy has 12 connected hotels. Dallas barely has that many within a 10 minute bus ride even running at full capacity.

Posted by quarex

#439

posting WORST Ever

Posted by squirecam sakurawinters

#440

 sakurawinters wrote:

Could you be more specific with this? What do you consider a top convention city and what is your qualifier for easy and reliable public transportation? I feel this needs to be quantified cause instead of just a blanket statement, because my personal experience differs.While I can't answer to every city, I live in Chicago. We are in the top 5 in most of the "Best Convention Cities" lists I looked at. We have two different centers and I nerd convention hard at both of them.
I would never consider the public transportation of either location to be 'easy and reliable' for the specific needs of Gen Con. It's okay(local shudder for local issues) for regular conventions, but not for Gen Con.
We are an odd con with needs outside what most convention cities anticipate.
1. We are a 24 hour con; we can't have stoppage after midnight.
2. There is no rigid schedule; so we would need continuous service.
3. The need for extra space (be it for cosplay, miniature armies, dealer room haul or game prep); so really busses and trains only seat about half the people.
4. We like, we like to party (or at least go out to eat); if the area near the convention center isn't hopping with options, we need the public transportation to take us there. Can I get back to the hotel with public trans from the restaurant or do I have to back to the center to get to my hotel?
That's a list that requires a robust system, that I know, personally, Chicago doesn't have for McCormick Place or Stephens Center and makes me curious about other top convention cities. I think for most people, if a city's public transportation can't handle the above list, they are going to do what we do in Indy now, drive themselves or Uber/Lyft.

What if you cannot drive because you have 4 friends all on different schedules? Its not economical to have 10 potential UBER trips for everyone. Just not cost effective.

If your plans end at 3am, then you probably are stuck driving or a taxi. But most people wont be on that schedule. And Indy does not satisfy your needs in that regards either.

As for dinner plans, the Dallas shuttles will take you to the different places to eat for free:

Free shuttle bus (DART D-Link, Route 722) to Downtown, Arts District, Uptown, The Cedars, Bishop Arts District, Victory Park, and the West End

Posted by roganca squirecam

#441

 sakurawinters wrote:

What if you cannot drive because you have 4 friends all on different schedules? Its not economical to have 10 potential UBER trips for everyone. Just not cost effective.If your plans end at 3am, then you probably are stuck driving or a taxi. But most people wont be on that schedule. And Indy does not satisfy your needs in that regards either.
As for dinner plans, the Dallas shuttles will take you to the different places to eat for free:

Free shuttle bus (DART D-Link, Route 722) to Downtown, Arts District, Uptown, The Cedars, Bishop Arts District, Victory Park, and the West End

Aha, the heart of the issue. So the problem with Indy is that it doesn't cater to groups of 5 with different schedules, one of whom has a game that ends at 3 AM. Well, it does cater to you, but it's not really cost effective.

So where again can we move the convention so it suits your specific needs?

"All right, we're movin' the Con, everyone!"

Posted by gharris

#442

People want to be able to drive to Gen Con, stay within walking distance of the con, and not have to walk in 100 degree plus heat. Realistically Indy is the best location for Gen Con, and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The real elephant in the room is attendance. If Gen Con wants to continue to give gamers the experience it wants it needs to curb attendance, and it needs to do so without cutting back on true gaming events. Unfortunately we now have a bloat of people who aren't actually coming for gaming, and Indy can't continue to support a generic "anything that a gamer or a family member of a gamer can possibly be interested in" convention.

Posted by jm.spellslinger gharris

#443

 gharris wrote:
People want to be able to drive to Gen Con, stay within walking distance of the con, and not have to walk in 100 degree plus heat. Realistically Indy is the best location for Gen Con, and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
The real elephant in the room is attendance. If Gen Con wants to continue to give gamers the experience it wants it needs to curb attendance, and it needs to do so without cutting back on true gaming events. Unfortunately we now have a bloat of people who aren't actually coming for gaming, and Indy can't continue to support a generic "anything that a gamer or a family member of a gamer can possibly be interested in" convention.

there is a whole forum dedicated to this topic. It's surely a more interesting topic now that ticket sales have reached their cap. As someone who comes to gen con as a gamer I am extremely greatful for the relief non-gaming events bring to the con. With over a full work day worth of gaming events scheduled every day from Thursday-Sunday, being able to just enjoy geek culture each day really lightens the experience for me.

Posted by gharris jm.spellslinger

#444

A housing problem is a population problem. If you want housing to get better you have to trim the fat, and the fat is never going to be the gaming events.

Posted by stiehle jm.spellslinger

#445