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Posted by twosheds garhkal
#76

garhkal wrote:
That's something i don't understand though.  IF other cities HAVE the capacity to host us hotel wise, AND has good infrastructure (busses or trams etc) to get people to and FROM the con, why should "walkability" matter? 

Just off the top of my head:

  • Personal needs.  People with disabilities or other medical issues who may have difficulties when staying remotely because it is difficult for long trips and/or they may have medication that needs to be kept in a refrigerator.
  • Convenience.  Staying offsite and having to rely on taxis or public transportation means I need to pad out my plans with extra time for the to/from commute.
  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).
  • Being near the action.  Unlike a lot of conventions where things happen 9-5 and then everyone scatters for the night, Gen Con is non-stop from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.  There have been multiple times that I've thought "hey, it's 2AM, I want to do a Magic draft".  Being able to simply walk over to the ICC makes that much easier.
  • Easier Coordination.  If I'm sharing a room with 3 other people, it is a lot easier to come and go as I please if I can walk to the hotel instead of trying to coordinate car rides with people.

Yes, there are places like Chicago and Vegas that can physically handle more people, but the "walkability" factor would be destroyed in places like that and would ruin the con for a great many people.

Edit: Spelling

Posted by squirecam twosheds
#77

twosheds wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That's something i don't understand though.  IF other cities HAVE the capacity to host us hotel wise, AND has good infrastructure (busses or trams etc) to get people to and FROM the con, why should "walkability" matter? 

Just off the top of my head:

  • Personal needs.  People with disabilities or other medical issues who may have difficulties when staying remotely because it is difficult for long trips and/or they may have medication that needs to be kept in a refrigerator.
  • Convenience.  Staying offsite and having to rely on taxis or public transportation means I need to pad out my plans with extra time for the to/from commute.
  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).
  • Being near the action.  Unlike a lot of conventions where things happen 9-5 and then everyone scatters for the night, Gen Con is non-stop from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.  There have been multiple times that I've thought "hey, it's 2AM, I want to do a Magic draft".  Being able to simply walk over to the ICC makes that much easier.
  • Easier Coordination.  If I'm sharing a room with 3 other people, it is a lot easier to come and go as I please if I can walk to the hotel instead of trying to coordinate car rides with people.

Yes, there are places like Chicago and Vegas that can physically handle more people, but the "walkability" factor would be destroyed in places like that and would ruin the con for a great many people.Edit: Spelling

This is just not true.

Trip advisor shows 31 hotels within a mile of the LVCC. Not to mention many of them are larger hotels with thousands of rooms.

Many more are within 1.5 miles and many have monorail service door to door with the LVCC.
 

Posted by rhone1
#78

The problem, I think, really comes down to pricing.  Yes, the lottery system, or any system, is not perfect.  However, we have a lot of people that want to stay in a downtown hotel.  Those that got shut out of downtown due to bad lottery luck are upset (understandably) and the prices that local hotels are charging outside the hotel block are too much for many people.  Sadly, supply and demand win here and prices outside the block will not be coming down anytime soon.

Posted by twosheds squirecam
#79

squirecam wrote:
twosheds wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That's something i don't understand though.  IF other cities HAVE the capacity to host us hotel wise, AND has good infrastructure (busses or trams etc) to get people to and FROM the con, why should "walkability" matter? 

Just off the top of my head:

  • Personal needs.  People with disabilities or other medical issues who may have difficulties when staying remotely because it is difficult for long trips and/or they may have medication that needs to be kept in a refrigerator.
  • Convenience.  Staying offsite and having to rely on taxis or public transportation means I need to pad out my plans with extra time for the to/from commute.
  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).
  • Being near the action.  Unlike a lot of conventions where things happen 9-5 and then everyone scatters for the night, Gen Con is non-stop from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.  There have been multiple times that I've thought "hey, it's 2AM, I want to do a Magic draft".  Being able to simply walk over to the ICC makes that much easier.
  • Easier Coordination.  If I'm sharing a room with 3 other people, it is a lot easier to come and go as I please if I can walk to the hotel instead of trying to coordinate car rides with people.

Yes, there are places like Chicago and Vegas that can physically handle more people, but the "walkability" factor would be destroyed in places like that and would ruin the con for a great many people.Edit: Spelling
This is just not true.Trip advisor shows 31 hotels within a mile of the LVCC. Not to mention many of them are larger hotels with thousands of rooms.
Many more are within 1.5 miles and many have monorail service door to door with the LVCC.
 

Clearly we have different definitions of "walkable".  If I have to take the monorail to get to my hotel, then it's not a walkable hotel.  Also, distances are funny in Vegas due to the large size of most of the venues.  A mile separation doesn't mean you're just walking a mile to your hotel, it's a lot more than that.

I'm not going to restart the age-old "where should Gen Con move to" conversation.  I was simply answering garkhal's question about why walkability matters.  To many, it does matter, and I gave some reasons why.

Posted by mhayward1978 squirecam
#80

 

Posted by squirecam twosheds
#81

twosheds wrote:
squirecam wrote:
twosheds wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That's something i don't understand though.  IF other cities HAVE the capacity to host us hotel wise, AND has good infrastructure (busses or trams etc) to get people to and FROM the con, why should "walkability" matter? 

Just off the top of my head:

  • Personal needs.  People with disabilities or other medical issues who may have difficulties when staying remotely because it is difficult for long trips and/or they may have medication that needs to be kept in a refrigerator.
  • Convenience.  Staying offsite and having to rely on taxis or public transportation means I need to pad out my plans with extra time for the to/from commute.
  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).
  • Being near the action.  Unlike a lot of conventions where things happen 9-5 and then everyone scatters for the night, Gen Con is non-stop from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.  There have been multiple times that I've thought "hey, it's 2AM, I want to do a Magic draft".  Being able to simply walk over to the ICC makes that much easier.
  • Easier Coordination.  If I'm sharing a room with 3 other people, it is a lot easier to come and go as I please if I can walk to the hotel instead of trying to coordinate car rides with people.

Yes, there are places like Chicago and Vegas that can physically handle more people, but the "walkability" factor would be destroyed in places like that and would ruin the con for a great many people.Edit: Spelling

This is just not true.Trip advisor shows 31 hotels within a mile of the LVCC. Not to mention many of them are larger hotels with thousands of rooms.
Many more are within 1.5 miles and many have monorail service door to door with the LVCC.

Clearly we have different definitions of "walkable".  If I have to take the monorail to get to my hotel, then it's not a walkable hotel.  Also, distances are funny in Vegas due to the large size of most of the venues.  A mile separation doesn't mean you're just walking a mile to your hotel, it's a lot more than that.I'm not going to restart the age-old "where should Gen Con move to" conversation.  I was simply answering garkhal's question about why walkability matters.  To many, it does matter, and I gave some reasons why.
There are more walkable rooms close to the LVCC than downtown Inday has in total.

The monorail hotels are in addition to them.

Posted by mhayward1978 twosheds
#82

twosheds wrote:
 


  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).


If you're too drunk to get in a cab the last thing your should be doing is fending for yourself on a public street late at night in an urban area - you're a danger to yourself and others.

Frankly if you're too drunk to get a cab the bar should have cut you off.

Posted by garhkal ryanjamison
#83

ryanjamison wrote:
garhkal wrote:And this is what, the 2nd straight year they USED this lottery system, even AFTER the fiasco and all the heat it got last year..

Because the complaints are from people that lost out, and the complaint boils down to them losing out. But there is no way to prevent people losing out. Hotel rooms are scarce, and no system of allocating them will fix that. No matter what is put in place to give one person an advantage, it puts another person at a disadvantage.As much as people don't want to admit it, the reason why some people suddenly cannot get a connected hotel room after getting one for 20 straight years isn't because of the system that's been put into place, it's because attendance doubled in five years. People that were lucky the last few years were eventually going to have their luck run out.

True, this way everyone's equally borked over in the randomization, vice only having it be those who waited till the day after hotel booking came up...  (or later on the same day)..
BUT that doesn't make it better..
twosheds wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That's something i don't understand though.  IF other cities HAVE the capacity to host us hotel wise, AND has good infrastructure (busses or trams etc) to get people to and FROM the con, why should "walkability" matter? 

Just off the top of my head:

  • Personal needs.  People with disabilities or other medical issues who may have difficulties when staying remotely because it is difficult for long trips and/or they may have medication that needs to be kept in a refrigerator.
  • Convenience.  Staying offsite and having to rely on taxis or public transportation means I need to pad out my plans with extra time for the to/from commute.
  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).
  • Being near the action.  Unlike a lot of conventions where things happen 9-5 and then everyone scatters for the night, Gen Con is non-stop from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.  There have been multiple times that I've thought "hey, it's 2AM, I want to do a Magic draft".  Being able to simply walk over to the ICC makes that much easier.
  • Easier Coordination.  If I'm sharing a room with 3 other people, it is a lot easier to come and go as I please if I can walk to the hotel instead of trying to coordinate car rides with people.

Yes, there are places like Chicago and Vegas that can physically handle more people, but the "walkability" factor would be destroyed in places like that and would ruin the con for a great many people.Edit: Spelling


Thanks for the quick answer on that..  BUT it brings up a few more questions..
Such as for your first point - 'disability access etc - ..  Then we would need to see what % of attendees are disabled.  If not that many (say 10% or lower), then couldn't something be done to accommodate them, while not making it where everyone else has to also be in walking distance?  (tried to come up with a more in depth question here, but realized it MIGHT sound too political doing so, so just went with it as is for now)..

On the Convenience issue - yes you need to add travel time.  BUT if having to add travel time, say 20 min before and after means MORE PEOPLE can come, then to Me that should be a no-brainer.. 

squirecam wrote:This is just not true.Trip advisor shows 31 hotels within a mile of the LVCC. Not to mention many of them are larger hotels with thousands of rooms.
Many more are within 1.5 miles and many have monorail service door to door with the LVCC.

Several people already griped about how un-kid friendly they see Vegas...

 

Posted by remnant
#84

Out of curiosity has anyone been to Vegas (insert the city you're championing for here I guess if you like) for one of the gaming conventions out there?  Or moved around outside the strip?  Checked out North Las Vegas?  Etc.

Posted by njseahawksfan
#85

I'll add to the walkability issue the following --

Minatures Gaming - these games often involve a lot of gear that needs to get moved to and from the hall.  Being attached makes this much much easier on the participant.  I have friends who flat out won't go if they're not attached because they are minature gamers.

Overall I think the issue is that walkability is huge deal-breaker for some people, and totally not an issue for others. 

The bigger issue is that many people in this thread treat the entire system as "Great!" or "Worst Evah!" based soley on their own selfish wants.  As a person who was literally hosed out of a room by the Great Glitch of 2015, who's had both an attached hotel and been in the boondocks, this system is simply the fairest one yet.

Posted by squirecam garhkal
#86

garhkal wrote:
ryanjamison wrote:
garhkal wrote:And this is what, the 2nd straight year they USED this lottery system, even AFTER the fiasco and all the heat it got last year..

Because the complaints are from people that lost out, and the complaint boils down to them losing out. But there is no way to prevent people losing out. Hotel rooms are scarce, and no system of allocating them will fix that. No matter what is put in place to give one person an advantage, it puts another person at a disadvantage.As much as people don't want to admit it, the reason why some people suddenly cannot get a connected hotel room after getting one for 20 straight years isn't because of the system that's been put into place, it's because attendance doubled in five years. People that were lucky the last few years were eventually going to have their luck run out.

True, this way everyone's equally borked over in the randomization, vice only having it be those who waited till the day after hotel booking came up...  (or later on the same day)..
BUT that doesn't make it better..
twosheds wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That's something i don't understand though.  IF other cities HAVE the capacity to host us hotel wise, AND has good infrastructure (busses or trams etc) to get people to and FROM the con, why should "walkability" matter? 

Just off the top of my head:

  • Personal needs.  People with disabilities or other medical issues who may have difficulties when staying remotely because it is difficult for long trips and/or they may have medication that needs to be kept in a refrigerator.
  • Convenience.  Staying offsite and having to rely on taxis or public transportation means I need to pad out my plans with extra time for the to/from commute.
  • Safety.  A lot of attendees like to partake at the nearby watering holes for a drink (or more) during the con.  Obviously being able to walk (stumble) back to your hotel room is a lot easier than getting a taxi or driving back to your hotel under the influence (PLEASE DON'T DO THIS).
  • Being near the action.  Unlike a lot of conventions where things happen 9-5 and then everyone scatters for the night, Gen Con is non-stop from Thursday morning until Sunday afternoon.  There have been multiple times that I've thought "hey, it's 2AM, I want to do a Magic draft".  Being able to simply walk over to the ICC makes that much easier.
  • Easier Coordination.  If I'm sharing a room with 3 other people, it is a lot easier to come and go as I please if I can walk to the hotel instead of trying to coordinate car rides with people.

Yes, there are places like Chicago and Vegas that can physically handle more people, but the "walkability" factor would be destroyed in places like that and would ruin the con for a great many people.Edit: Spelling

Thanks for the quick answer on that..  BUT it brings up a few more questions..
Such as for your first point - 'disability access etc - ..  Then we would need to see what % of attendees are disabled.  If not that many (say 10% or lower), then couldn't something be done to accommodate them, while not making it where everyone else has to also be in walking distance?  (tried to come up with a more in depth question here, but realized it MIGHT sound too political doing so, so just went with it as is for now)..On the Convenience issue - yes you need to add travel time.  BUT if having to add travel time, say 20 min before and after means MORE PEOPLE can come, then to Me that should be a no-brainer.. 
squirecam wrote:This is just not true.Trip advisor shows 31 hotels within a mile of the LVCC. Not to mention many of them are larger hotels with thousands of rooms.
Many more are within 1.5 miles and many have monorail service door to door with the LVCC.

Several people already griped about how un-kid friendly they see Vegas... 
Vegas is not un-kid friendly. That ended before the 90's. Not to mention that if you have to, you can choose Circus-Circus or a hotel like that to specifically cater to your kids.

Some people find navigating the Indy homeless late a night a scary proposition for your kids. Would you let them walk 6 blocks in Indy alone at night?

I get it that people who drive dont want Gen Con to leave Indy. I live in vegas and I dont want it to leave Indy either.

But the convention has outgrown Indy. You have no light rail. No reliable safe public transport. And not nearly enough close hotels. Without these things the problem will only get worse.

There ARE other options. Gen Con needs to consider them.

Posted by njseahawksfan remnant
#87

remnant wrote:
Out of curiosity has anyone been to Vegas (insert the city you're championing for here I guess if you like) for one of the gaming conventions out there?  Or moved around outside the strip?  Checked out North Las Vegas?  Etc.
I have been to Vegas for Magic Grand Prix recently.  It was super fun and totally NOT family friendly.  The event was 1/20th the size of Gen Con and the Strip was a mob scene for the entire time were there filled with drunk bachelor/batchelorette parties, several other conventions, guys handing out explicit ads for hookers ... you know, Vegas.  I cannot see GenCon fitting in with the vibe of Vegas AT ALL ... and I like Vegas.

Posted by braewe
#88

So. Pondering why Gen Con might not consider moving.

It is /tremendously/ successful right where it is. Moving may or may not improve different situations but flat out, as is, the convention is a success. 

What brings my thoughts up on this is that, in our middling smallish town, we have a /superb/ restaurant. The seating is limited, there is /always/ a wait. I asked why they didn't A) expand or move locations or B) open a second location and the owner replied simply that he was happy with it as it was. Hugely successful, well-liked, building paid for, contracts negotiated, etc. He said he had no intention of ever changing it.

Yes, much  MUCH smaller scale. But it could very well be that Mr. Adkison doesn't feel like revisiting the bankruptcy courts anytime soon (SoCal and Celebration) and is happy with gen con's growth the way it is. It will, after all, limit itself once it reaches a certain point. No more room for games/exhibitors/attendees.

 

Posted by squirecam braewe
#89

braewe wrote:
So. Pondering why Gen Con might not consider moving.
It is /tremendously/ successful right where it is. Moving may or may not improve different situations but flat out, as is, the convention is a success. 
What brings my thoughts up on this is that, in our middling smallish town, we have a /superb/ restaurant. The seating is limited, there is /always/ a wait. I asked why they didn't A) expand or move locations or B) open a second location and the owner replied simply that he was happy with it as it was. Hugely successful, well-liked, building paid for, contracts negotiated, etc. He said he had no intention of ever changing it.
Yes, much  MUCH smaller scale. But it could very well be that Mr. Adkison doesn't feel like revisiting the bankruptcy courts anytime soon (SoCal and Celebration) and is happy with gen con's growth the way it is. It will, after all, limit itself once it reaches a certain point. No more room for games/exhibitors/attendees.
 
The $ does not affect whether Gen Con could take steps to help the situation. Such as the shuttle. It could make even more $. Yet they decided it wasn't worth the effort.

IMHO, it has already reached the "certain point" where the problems of Indy are exceeding the ability of the city to fix them. As someone pointed out, Indy has LOST 1000 rooms since 2011. Yet the attendance has more than doubled. This is a situation that cannot be easily fixed and doing nothing is not an option.

Posted by braewe
#90

Except that it IS. There is nothing at all that says they HAVE to accommodate everyone who wants to go.

Posted by twosheds garhkal
#91

garhkal wrote:On the Convenience issue - yes you need to add travel time.  BUT if having to add travel time, say 20 min before and after means MORE PEOPLE can come, then to Me that should be a no-brainer.. 

This is true, however from my perspective the travel time is likely going to be closer to 60-90 minutes each way, especially if the solution relies heavily on any form of mass transit.  I guess the question becomes what is the threshold that people are willing to accept for this travel time?

*shrug*

IMO, Gen Con is doing the best that they can with a tough situation. 

Posted by squirecam braewe
#92

braewe wrote:
Except that it IS. There is nothing at all that says they HAVE to accommodate everyone who wants to go.
Then why move from Milwaukee?

When you outgrow a city you fix the issues or move.

Posted by twosheds squirecam
#93

squirecam wrote:
braewe wrote:
Except that it IS. There is nothing at all that says they HAVE to accommodate everyone who wants to go.
Then why move from Milwaukee?When you outgrow a city you fix the issues or move.

While I never attended Gen Con in Milwaukee, my understanding is that in addition to the con outgrowing the venue, the city itself never really did much to embrace Gen Con.  Indy has done that.  The proverbial red carpet gets rolled out every year.

Also, moving from Milwaukee to Indy had less of an impact because Indy was in the same general region, had better facilities, and Indy is embracing the idea of being a convention town.

Yes, Gen Con is now showing the upper limits of what Indy can host, but the next move (as has been discussed may times before) is not as easy of an upgrade as the Milwaukee to Indy move.

Posted by remnant squirecam
#94

If you live in Vegas how are the other gaming conventions there doing?

Posted by squirecam remnant
#95

remnant wrote:
If you live in Vegas how are the other gaming conventions there doing?
Not remotely near Gencon #'s.

Of course Gencon is not remotely near CES #'s.

We could handle it easily.

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