Official Gen Con specific only Coronavirus thread
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Posted by kitkumi gib_rebeg
#1201

gib_rebeg wrote:
hahnarama wrote:
sepayne7 wrote:
My wife and I are looking forward to going this year.  She  just saw a True Dungeon volunteer at the supermarket ( he had a TD shirt, my wife was wearing a con shirt) and he was excited about going this year. Masks, gloves, and sanitizers make us feel comfortable enough. 
I worry there won’t be as many RPGs and games, but if it goes, it will be great. Has TD re hired all of their staff? Last communication from them was that they were forced to layoff everyone
Staff and volunteers are different.I believe the staff are all still laid off. Only Jeff running it all right now. He ops out of Illinois which has very strict rules right now.
The volunteers as mentioned are those who show to the con, and actually run the rooms.
 
It is this aspect that concerns me for TD at least, which I think can also span out to the entire con. For many people masks and sanitizer will be enough. But that won't matter if events can't get the needed number of volunteers to run. TD alone needs a lot of volunteers to run, even if they are running at a reduced capacity. One of our friends has been a volunteer for TD before and the rooming situation alone made him decline volunteering this year before he ever decided what he was going to do in regards to con (four people to a hotel room if you stay in one of the TD volunteer rooms, and not necessarily with people you know, though you can make requests. His thing was 'I know where I've been and my level of safety. I don't know where my roommates would be from or their level of safety'.)
 

Posted by lore seeker kitkumi
#1202

kitkumi wrote:
gib_rebeg wrote:
hahnarama wrote:
sepayne7 wrote:
My wife and I are looking forward to going this year.  She  just saw a True Dungeon volunteer at the supermarket ( he had a TD shirt, my wife was wearing a con shirt) and he was excited about going this year. Masks, gloves, and sanitizers make us feel comfortable enough. 
I worry there won’t be as many RPGs and games, but if it goes, it will be great. Has TD re hired all of their staff? Last communication from them was that they were forced to layoff everyone
Staff and volunteers are different.I believe the staff are all still laid off. Only Jeff running it all right now. He ops out of Illinois which has very strict rules right now.
The volunteers as mentioned are those who show to the con, and actually run the rooms.
It is this aspect that concerns me for TD at least, which I think can also span out to the entire con. For many people masks and sanitizer will be enough. But that won't matter if events can't get the needed number of volunteers to run. TD alone needs a lot of volunteers to run, even if they are running at a reduced capacity. One of our friends has been a volunteer for TD before and the rooming situation alone made him decline volunteering this year before he ever decided what he was going to do in regards to con (four people to a hotel room if you stay in one of the TD volunteer rooms, and not necessarily with people you know, though you can make requests. His thing was 'I know where I've been and my level of safety. I don't know where my roommates would be from or their level of safety'.)
 

That makes me wonder: what percentage of events at Gen Con are run by organized companies like TD, Nascrag, etc.; and what percentage are run by individual GMs whose only employees/volunteers are themselves? Those numbers could provide interesting insight into how the problem quoted above might affect the number of events available at Gen Con.

Posted by gib_rebeg lore seeker
#1203

father bloodlust wrote:
kitkumi wrote:
gib_rebeg wrote:
hahnarama wrote:
sepayne7 wrote:
My wife and I are looking forward to going this year.  She  just saw a True Dungeon volunteer at the supermarket ( he had a TD shirt, my wife was wearing a con shirt) and he was excited about going this year. Masks, gloves, and sanitizers make us feel comfortable enough. 
I worry there won’t be as many RPGs and games, but if it goes, it will be great. Has TD re hired all of their staff? Last communication from them was that they were forced to layoff everyone
Staff and volunteers are different.I believe the staff are all still laid off. Only Jeff running it all right now. He ops out of Illinois which has very strict rules right now.
The volunteers as mentioned are those who show to the con, and actually run the rooms.
It is this aspect that concerns me for TD at least, which I think can also span out to the entire con. For many people masks and sanitizer will be enough. But that won't matter if events can't get the needed number of volunteers to run. TD alone needs a lot of volunteers to run, even if they are running at a reduced capacity. One of our friends has been a volunteer for TD before and the rooming situation alone made him decline volunteering this year before he ever decided what he was going to do in regards to con (four people to a hotel room if you stay in one of the TD volunteer rooms, and not necessarily with people you know, though you can make requests. His thing was 'I know where I've been and my level of safety. I don't know where my roommates would be from or their level of safety'.)

That makes me wonder: what percentage of events at Gen Con are run by organized companies like TD, Nascrag, etc.; and what percentage are run by individual GMs whose only employees/volunteers are themselves? Those numbers could provide interesting insight into how the problem quoted above might affect the number of events available at Gen Con.

I would think a fair number of the smaller companies do the volunteer route. Though the term volunteer is misleading and a number of the larger one's use regular paid staff.

Now I say it's misleading in that most people when they hear the term volunteer, think they are unpaid. They are not. By law, any for profit group, organization ect must pay their people. They can't use unpaid volunteer if they are for profit. And Gencon as well as TD must pay income tax.

Now someone will argue that there is no real cash exchange. But that doesn't really matter, it's based on the value exchange of goods, cash or services. For example TD gives $250 stipdend, a hotel room shared with other volunteers, convention badge, limited-edition Participation Tokens, limited-edition volunteer-only tokens as well as other swag. If you figure up the value of what they give, it should be around $500 total, which equates to about $12.00/hour. Might be more but not going into the math.

Now Gencon also uses "Event Team" which replaced their volunteer system 3- 4 years ago, basically the same thing.

Should Gencon or a group fail to get enough people to run the events, they should know in advance, there are still options, inside and out. Put out the word to the fans begging for help, offer better incentives, or ect. Or outside options is hire temp workers from places like the following.

Temp Staffing of Indiana, Express Employment Professionals, Indiana Staffing Services.

These places are not idea, yes,. But in a fix, you could hire some temp workers and give them some real basic training that will allow them to work, and get the events staffed.

Posted by wildcat78 gib_rebeg
#1204

Or outside options is hire temp workers from places like the following.
Temp Staffing of Indiana, Express Employment Professionals, Indiana Staffing Services.
These places are not idea, yes,. But in a fix, you could hire some temp workers and give them some real basic training that will allow them to work, and get the events staffed.

All very good points but also consider companies need to have budgeted $$ for temp workers, hours for training, and are comfortable with the gap in skills & experience from their usual team.   At 70-ish days out And shrinking that’s a pretty Monumental ask...

 

Posted by grognard262
#1205

There is a positive trend emerging in the data.  The positivity rate (the red line) is falling steadily.  Essentially it means that we are doing more and more testing, and fewer and fewer of those tests are coming back positive.  Also, if you look at Europe, which is a few weeks ahead of us, the numbers have come way down as well.  A glimmer of hope!

Posted by nscott
#1206

I’ve cancelled my events, my hotel reservation and had my badge refunded so I no longer am really concerned if there is a Gen Con in 2020, but I feel compelled to point out that the AEI is the American Enterprise Institute, a decidedly pro business organization so they have an agenda. They are not a public health or medical organization. The graph is missing any of the statistical information that would allow you to judge it’s quality, and there is no way to judge their data collection methodology. It may be right, it may be wrong but there is no way to know from the graph as presented.

Posted by forar
#1207

While the national numbers may have some application towards having tens of thousands of out of state visitors coming into town, Indiana is still showing fairly steady numbers. Aside from a pair of downward spikes, the rate at which new cases are being identified daily hasn't really budged since late April.

Understanding how many new cases might be coming into town is one thing, but the town itself is still producing them on its own. Of course, as I myself have pointed out, those numbers are lagging indicators; the results now are reflective of the actions or inaction of a week or two back.

And while local/national/global trends are worth keeping an eye on, the lack of widespread testing (and the accuracy of those tests being questioned, both false positives and false negatives) makes 'good news' hard to believe. At least this chart has a rolling average that would smooth out the usual weekend drops that show up in a lot of reporting (and somehow still seem to surprise people this far in).

But it just takes a few cases cropping up for things to start getting out of hand again. We can post all the good news in the world today, and it won't mean anything if a super-spreader incident occurs a week or two before showtime.

According to this site: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/worldwide-graphs/#europe-usa-cases

European and US cases are actually running remarkably similarly, though several countries (Russia, I'm looking at you) have only recently begun reporting what seem to be remotely sane numbers (previously there weren't any COVID deaths, just a ton of oddly specific non-flu pneumonia related deaths, by my understanding).

Granted, Europe is roughly twice the population of the US, but comparing immense populations across entire continents is going to run into a few snags getting to an apples to apples level.

Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but while I dearly hope for good news, it's hard not to see apparent gaping holes in the contrasts.

Edit: actually, digging deeper, forget the state numbers. Marion County has seen 100-300 new positive cases reported daily since mid April. And the most recent numbers (the last three days) have not been good.

Posted by insane
#1208

I intend to go to Indianapolis whether there is an official con or not, play some board games and have some fun.  However it just occurred to me that games, events or even the entire convention center may require masks be worn and I for one cannot abide wearing a mask.  I wont wear a mask and will simple not attend anything that requires them.  I am polite about it, their games their con their rules, I just wont participate in those things and find my own fun that is mask free

Looking at the internet and society at large I can foresee some real conflicts surrounding the issue of masks.  Players upset that others are not wearing a mask, loud conflicts between mask wearers and those not wearing masks.  shoving matches in the dealers hall when some mask wearer gets upset that someone not wearing a mask is standing to close to them etcetera.  

regardless of what GENCON policy is on masks and or social distancing I hope it is made clear to all and some forethought is given on how to de-escalate any conflicts that arise.

Posted by dballing insane
#1209

insane wrote:
I intend to go to Indianapolis whether there is an official con or not, play some board games and have some fun.  However it just occurred to me that games, events or even the entire convention center may require masks be worn and I for one cannot abide wearing a mask.  I wont wear a mask and will simple not attend anything that requires them.  I am polite about it, their games their con their rules, I just wont participate in those things and find my own fun that is mask free
Looking at the internet and society at large I can foresee some real conflicts surrounding the issue of masks.  Players upset that others are not wearing a mask, loud conflicts between mask wearers and those not wearing masks.  shoving matches in the dealers hall when some mask wearer gets upset that someone not wearing a mask is standing to close to them etcetera.  
regardless of what GENCON policy is on masks and or social distancing I hope it is made clear to all and some forethought is given on how to de-escalate any conflicts that arise.

I have to imagine that it's going to be quite simple: You wear a mask, or you leave.

Even the most ambitious, optimistic, version of the narrative would almost certainly have a hard-requirement for masks.

Posted by insane dballing
#1210

dballing wrote:
insane wrote:
I intend to go to Indianapolis whether there is an official con or not, play some board games and have some fun.  However it just occurred to me that games, events or even the entire convention center may require masks be worn and I for one cannot abide wearing a mask.  I wont wear a mask and will simple not attend anything that requires them.  I am polite about it, their games their con their rules, I just wont participate in those things and find my own fun that is mask free
Looking at the internet and society at large I can foresee some real conflicts surrounding the issue of masks.  Players upset that others are not wearing a mask, loud conflicts between mask wearers and those not wearing masks.  shoving matches in the dealers hall when some mask wearer gets upset that someone not wearing a mask is standing to close to them etcetera.  
regardless of what GENCON policy is on masks and or social distancing I hope it is made clear to all and some forethought is given on how to de-escalate any conflicts that arise.

I have to imagine that it's going to be quite simple: You wear a mask, or you leave.Even the most ambitious, optimistic, version of the narrative would almost certainly have a hard-requirement for masks.
I sincerely hope that if masks are the requirement things will be that simple but I highly doubt it and can imagine a 100 scenarios off the top of my head were conflicts between attendees vs attendees and attendees vs staff will arise in regards to masks.

Posted by dballing insane
#1211

insane wrote:
dballing wrote:
insane wrote:
I intend to go to Indianapolis whether there is an official con or not, play some board games and have some fun.  However it just occurred to me that games, events or even the entire convention center may require masks be worn and I for one cannot abide wearing a mask.  I wont wear a mask and will simple not attend anything that requires them.  I am polite about it, their games their con their rules, I just wont participate in those things and find my own fun that is mask free
Looking at the internet and society at large I can foresee some real conflicts surrounding the issue of masks.  Players upset that others are not wearing a mask, loud conflicts between mask wearers and those not wearing masks.  shoving matches in the dealers hall when some mask wearer gets upset that someone not wearing a mask is standing to close to them etcetera.  
regardless of what GENCON policy is on masks and or social distancing I hope it is made clear to all and some forethought is given on how to de-escalate any conflicts that arise.

I have to imagine that it's going to be quite simple: You wear a mask, or you leave.Even the most ambitious, optimistic, version of the narrative would almost certainly have a hard-requirement for masks.
I sincerely hope that if masks are the requirement things will be that simple but I highly doubt it and can imagine a 100 scenarios off the top of my head were conflicts between attendees vs attendees and attendees vs staff will arise in regards to masks.

Maybe, but i suspect it'll be much like the badge requirement: Just the same as how it's "no badge? You need to leave," it'll be the same as "no mask? You need to leave."

And I, for one, would have as much pity for someone who got uppity about not wanting to wear a mask as I would for someone who wanted to attend the con without a badge, which is to say, none at all. :-)

Posted by insane dballing
#1212

dballing wrote:
insane wrote:
dballing wrote:
insane wrote:
I intend to go to Indianapolis whether there is an official con or not, play some board games and have some fun.  However it just occurred to me that games, events or even the entire convention center may require masks be worn and I for one cannot abide wearing a mask.  I wont wear a mask and will simple not attend anything that requires them.  I am polite about it, their games their con their rules, I just wont participate in those things and find my own fun that is mask free
Looking at the internet and society at large I can foresee some real conflicts surrounding the issue of masks.  Players upset that others are not wearing a mask, loud conflicts between mask wearers and those not wearing masks.  shoving matches in the dealers hall when some mask wearer gets upset that someone not wearing a mask is standing to close to them etcetera.  
regardless of what GENCON policy is on masks and or social distancing I hope it is made clear to all and some forethought is given on how to de-escalate any conflicts that arise.

I have to imagine that it's going to be quite simple: You wear a mask, or you leave.Even the most ambitious, optimistic, version of the narrative would almost certainly have a hard-requirement for masks.
I sincerely hope that if masks are the requirement things will be that simple but I highly doubt it and can imagine a 100 scenarios off the top of my head were conflicts between attendees vs attendees and attendees vs staff will arise in regards to masks.

Maybe, but i suspect it'll be much like the badge requirement: Just the same as how it's "no badge? You need to leave," it'll be the same as "no mask? You need to leave."And I, for one, would have as much pity for someone who got uppity about not wanting to wear a mask as I would for someone who wanted to attend the con without a badge, which is to say, none at all. :-)
agreed it can be that simple at certain points but the convention has many facets.
is the food truck area a mask zone or mask free so you can eat and drink? 
can you take your mask off to drink some water eat a snack in the convention hall?
how long is it acceptable to have your mask off in the halls?  
while a mask requirement is probable enforceable in a hotel space paid for by the con just like badges, it wont be enforceable in said hotels public spaces 
do you have to have the mask on in line to get into the convention center or only at the entrance as you go in?
are the cops roaming the convention going to be wearing masks?

Humans are quarrelsome animals and I just hope someone is thinking about these things

my only real suggestion is to have a lot of signage in large clear and to the point print stating the rules and be prepared for a much greater amount of arguments to deal with then a normal con

Posted by dballing
#1213

Well, one thing:

while a mask requirement is probable enforceable in a hotel space paid for by the con just like badges, it wont be enforceable in said hotels public spaces

it's still enforceable, just by different folks' authority -- folks who might delegate that authority to others. For instance, I can easily foresee GenCon saying to the hotels "You need to enforce masks in even the public areas" and the hotels agreeing to that obvious safety measure, and then them also saying, "OK, but you're in charge of policing it."

At which point the GenCon Mask Patrol ends up with authority both in the semi-public and rented spaces to enforce a mask requirement. Actual public areas (like the streets around the food trucks) are certainly murkier, but you might even have Indy requiring it, at which point it would be a IMPD thing to deal with there.

 

Posted by hahnarama
#1214

I know we're not allowed to mention other Cons but Spiel Essen just cancelled for 2020. Read this before it's deleted

Posted by grognard262 nscott
#1215

nscott wrote:
I’ve cancelled my events, my hotel reservation and had my badge refunded so I no longer am really concerned if there is a Gen Con in 2020, but I feel compelled to point out that the AEI is the American Enterprise Institute, a decidedly pro business organization so they have an agenda. They are not a public health or medical organization. The graph is missing any of the statistical information that would allow you to judge it’s quality, and there is no way to judge their data collection methodology. It may be right, it may be wrong but there is no way to know from the graph as presented.

From what I can tell the graphic is prepared by AEI, but the underlying data comes from the Covid Tracking Project (https://covidtracking.com/) which is affiliated with The Atlantic.

Posted by oldcurmudgeonstudios
#1216

The only thing I have to say about the "mandatory mask requirement" is this:

I'm partially deaf. I wear hearing aids, but in an area with multiple conversations going at the same time, it's almost impossible for me to understand everything that is going on without being able to lipread the person I'm talking to. With everyone wearing a mask, not only will I not know what is being said, but since directional hearing is shite, it'll be extremely difficult to know WHO is talking.

Masks also tend to go around the ear with elastic. That raises more difficulties. That elastic tends to narrow the ear canal my hearing aids go into, making things even more difficult. Lastly, which side of the hearing aid the elastic goes around is a problem. It's a personal issue, but an issue none the less. If it goes over the aid, it pinches the hearing tube closed. If it goes behind the aid, the elastic pulls the aid from behind my ear, pulling the aid completely out 7 times out of 10, and dropping it to the floor for me, or someone else to step on.

I feel ostracized enough in a crowd by needing to ask people to repeat themselves multiple times and having to apologize profusely because I can't hear them, on a good day. Add in the effect masks will have, and you might as well tell the deaf guy to stay at home.

Posted by dballing oldcurmudgeonstudios
#1217

oldcurmudgeonstudios wrote:
The only thing I have to say about the "mandatory mask requirement" is this:
I'm partially deaf. I wear hearing aids, but in an area with multiple conversations going at the same time, it's almost impossible for me to understand everything that is going on without being able to lipread the person I'm talking to. With everyone wearing a mask, not only will I not know what is being said, but since directional hearing is shite, it'll be extremely difficult to know WHO is talking.
Masks also tend to go around the ear with elastic. That raises more difficulties. That elastic tends to narrow the ear canal my hearing aids go into, making things even more difficult. Lastly, which side of the hearing aid the elastic goes around is a problem. It's a personal issue, but an issue none the less. If it goes over the aid, it pinches the hearing tube closed. If it goes behind the aid, the elastic pulls the aid from behind my ear, pulling the aid completely out 7 times out of 10, and dropping it to the floor for me, or someone else to step on.
I feel ostracized enough in a crowd by needing to ask people to repeat themselves multiple times and having to apologize profusely because I can't hear them, on a good day. Add in the effect masks will have, and you might as well tell the deaf guy to stay at home.

It's true, it's going to be tough, no arguments.

I _suspect_ that in the struggle to reconcile "accessibility" versus "public health", accessibility is going to be the side that loses out (the needs of the many and all that, and it really is a "need" rather than just a nice-to-have or something like that).

:-(

Posted by watchdog
#1218

Oldcurmudgeonstudios: You make some good points. I know some masks are being made with clear plastic over the mouth to facilitate lip reading, but they’re not exactly in widespread use.

I have a suggestion that might help your own mask wearing comfort. My wife got me a mesh baseball cap with the brand name of Sweaty. This cap has a button on each side that you can hook the elastic band onto. It takes the pressure off your ears and is much more comfortable. Or if you sew, you could probably DIY with a cap of your own.

Posted by matthias9
#1219

I don't see the value in going several layers deep into speculation.

Now we need to solve the hypothetical shoving match which occurred because of hypothetical policy in place at a convention that might hypothetically take place?  It's like we're in the movie Inception.

If the convention takes place at all, they will announce what public health practices are to be used.  These rules may not even be up to Gen Con.  The city and state, not to mention the ICC will have guidelines in place.  And those guidelines would be based on the situation at that time (ie in July/Aug).  They will not be based on the world in May.

Posted by tinabear81 oldcurmudgeonstudios
#1220

oldcurmudgeonstudios wrote:
The only thing I have to say about the "mandatory mask requirement" is this:
I'm partially deaf. I wear hearing aids, but in an area with multiple conversations going at the same time, it's almost impossible for me to understand everything that is going on without being able to lipread the person I'm talking to. With everyone wearing a mask, not only will I not know what is being said, but since directional hearing is shite, it'll be extremely difficult to know WHO is talking.
Masks also tend to go around the ear with elastic. That raises more difficulties. That elastic tends to narrow the ear canal my hearing aids go into, making things even more difficult. Lastly, which side of the hearing aid the elastic goes around is a problem. It's a personal issue, but an issue none the less. If it goes over the aid, it pinches the hearing tube closed. If it goes behind the aid, the elastic pulls the aid from behind my ear, pulling the aid completely out 7 times out of 10, and dropping it to the floor for me, or someone else to step on.
I feel ostracized enough in a crowd by needing to ask people to repeat themselves multiple times and having to apologize profusely because I can't hear them, on a good day. Add in the effect masks will have, and you might as well tell the deaf guy to stay at home.
There are plenty of masks that have ties instead of elastic. There are also cloth headbands with buttons on the sides designed specifically to protect your ears by looping the elastic around the buttons and not your ears. They are called earsavers. If you don’t sew or don’t know anyone who would be willing to give or sell you masks with ties or some earsavers, there are plenty of people online who make and sell them. 

Obviously, none of this will help the underlying issue of not being able to lip read, but a different mask might help lessen the issues with losing directional hearing caused by the elastic around your ears. 

 

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