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Posted by squirecam sh4d0w0fw4r
#326

sh4d0w0fw4r wrote:
squirecam wrote:
sh4d0w0fw4r wrote:
I have been reading this same debate for years now...GenCon should STAY...GenCon should GO...and so on and so on. Every year the complaint is the same that there is not enough housing space. It surprises me however that the hotels are only viewed for their housing and not their impact to the convention itself (ie; event space) when debating whether GenCon should move or not. With Gencon Indy every hotel is teeming with events and open play areas. Hotels not only dedicate their rooms, and meeting areas to the con but many even partner with different publishers to give you a themed room key or re-do their restaurants in a fantasy theme. IMHO I do not believe hotels in towns such as Vegas or hotels that are not centrally located to the convention space itself would be willing to dedicate this much effort to a convention. We all attend GenCon for the games and the experience of being immersed in a world of fellow gamers who are excited about the same ideas, items, and hobbies. Moving to a large area such as Vegas would eliminate this immersion and break what I feel is a latch-key aspect to the convention. It is one thing to have this immersion inside the 4 walls of the convention center but the carry-over, the on the street conversations or the board games being played at the eateries down the street are what really make it an experience. 
it's not immersive to me when I have to stay miles away at an airport hotel and can't get transport to the convention easily.There is simply not enough space downtown anymore for convention attendees to stay. Something needs to be done.
I agree that something needs to be done. And i think we can mostly agree there is no simple solution. Indy has current plans under way to construct more downtown hotels (seen in various forums and news articles) but obviously these kinds of things take time. Ultimately though there will be some people that do not get a downtown hotel room and it comes down to deciding if a downtown room is the determining factor for your fun and enjoyment for the con. Over the last 10yrs I have stayed both downtown and outside the Loop (I-465) but no matter where i have stayed once i get downtown it is obvious that the entire "City" is adding to the experience. I am not arguing the housing issue, as it is an issue, but more so that re-location would detract from the overall "feel" or immersion of the con. At the end of the day the decision to move or not move GenCon is outside any of our hands. We know for the next few years it is to remain in Indy and we will all continue to either Win or Lose the housing lottery for these next few years. (Side Note: I do thoroughly enjoy the forums and the fact that there are soo many passionate people in the GenCon Community to debate these types of topics. I have not been to many other conventions (board gaming or otherwise) but i am hard pressed to believe their attendees would talk with such fervor and passion about the event itself.)
Unfortunately, it is only the threat of moving, backed up by the willingness to actually move, which will create changes. If Indy does not have to spend millions to upgrade their infrastructure...then they simply wont do so. Generally, govt does not spend such money until forced into it.

Since Indy has it until 2021, Gencon should be actively seeking options. Gencon was very quick to threaten the move when they were bothered by Pence and the legislature...yet Gencon has said nothing public about the infrastructure issues.
 

Posted by stiehle sh4d0w0fw4r
#327

sh4d0w0fw4r wrote:
squirecam wrote:
sh4d0w0fw4r wrote:
I have been reading this same debate for years now...GenCon should STAY...GenCon should GO...and so on and so on. Every year the complaint is the same that there is not enough housing space. It surprises me however that the hotels are only viewed for their housing and not their impact to the convention itself (ie; event space) when debating whether GenCon should move or not. With Gencon Indy every hotel is teeming with events and open play areas. Hotels not only dedicate their rooms, and meeting areas to the con but many even partner with different publishers to give you a themed room key or re-do their restaurants in a fantasy theme. IMHO I do not believe hotels in towns such as Vegas or hotels that are not centrally located to the convention space itself would be willing to dedicate this much effort to a convention. We all attend GenCon for the games and the experience of being immersed in a world of fellow gamers who are excited about the same ideas, items, and hobbies. Moving to a large area such as Vegas would eliminate this immersion and break what I feel is a latch-key aspect to the convention. It is one thing to have this immersion inside the 4 walls of the convention center but the carry-over, the on the street conversations or the board games being played at the eateries down the street are what really make it an experience. 
it's not immersive to me when I have to stay miles away at an airport hotel and can't get transport to the convention easily.There is simply not enough space downtown anymore for convention attendees to stay. Something needs to be done.
I agree that something needs to be done. And i think we can mostly agree there is no simple solution. Indy has current plans under way to construct more downtown hotels (seen in various forums and news articles) but obviously these kinds of things take time. Ultimately though there will be some people that do not get a downtown hotel room and it comes down to deciding if a downtown room is the determining factor for your fun and enjoyment for the con. Over the last 10yrs I have stayed both downtown and outside the Loop (I-465) but no matter where i have stayed once i get downtown it is obvious that the entire "City" is adding to the experience. I am not arguing the housing issue, as it is an issue, but more so that re-location would detract from the overall "feel" or immersion of the con. At the end of the day the decision to move or not move GenCon is outside any of our hands. We know for the next few years it is to remain in Indy and we will all continue to either Win or Lose the housing lottery for these next few years. (Side Note: I do thoroughly enjoy the forums and the fact that there are soo many passionate people in the GenCon Community to debate these types of topics. I have not been to many other conventions (board gaming or otherwise) but i am hard pressed to believe their attendees would talk with such fervor and passion about the event itself.)

I'm toying with the idea of going to NOVACon (I think that's what it's called) which is almost literally in my own backyard (about 5 miles down the road from my house), but it just seems so... dull compared to what I've seen here just in the forums alone.  I'll probably try it just for the heck of it, and maybe it'll be a nice appetizer for the main course, since GenCon occurs about three weeks afterward.  :)

As to the whole Indy downtown debate, my comment about mixing gambling with D&D was fairly tongue-in-cheek.  I love the idea of mixing my two favorite passions (I don't indulge in gambling often, but I do enjoy the hell out of my very occasional forays into that particular sin), but I honestly don't see GenCon and Vegas mixing very well at all.  I get the idea of keeping GenCon centrally located, and Vegas is seriously not a family-friendly place.  I see opinions varying on this subject, but I'll never be convinced.  Especially not when folks are flicking business cards featuring half-naked women at you when you step out on the street.  And I can't imagine taking young children into a good number of those casino/hotels, where the waitresses are wearing very... err... provocative clothing, shall we say.  Not to mention everything else that goes on in Vegas that gives the place the appropriate nickname of Sin City.

Even beyond that, though.  I just don't see Vegas embracing the nerd culture that IS GenCon (or as I imagine it to be at any rate, since this will be my very first visit).  Judging by the stories I've seen passed around these forums with regards to the local restaurants and hotels and how they take great pains to make the RPGers, board gamers, LARPers and Cosplayers feel welcomed and at home, I just can't imagine anyplace in Vegas that would do the same.  Not necessarily because we just aren't their type of crowd (though in many instances I think that's probably true), but because they have to cater to so many different types of folks on a daily basis, they just wouldn't want to expend the time/energy to do so.

Posted by njseahawksfan squirecam
#328

squirecam wrote:
sh4d0w0fw4r wrote:
squirecam wrote:
sh4d0w0fw4r wrote:
I have been reading this same debate for years now...GenCon should STAY...GenCon should GO...and so on and so on. Every year the complaint is the same that there is not enough housing space. It surprises me however that the hotels are only viewed for their housing and not their impact to the convention itself (ie; event space) when debating whether GenCon should move or not. With Gencon Indy every hotel is teeming with events and open play areas. Hotels not only dedicate their rooms, and meeting areas to the con but many even partner with different publishers to give you a themed room key or re-do their restaurants in a fantasy theme. IMHO I do not believe hotels in towns such as Vegas or hotels that are not centrally located to the convention space itself would be willing to dedicate this much effort to a convention. We all attend GenCon for the games and the experience of being immersed in a world of fellow gamers who are excited about the same ideas, items, and hobbies. Moving to a large area such as Vegas would eliminate this immersion and break what I feel is a latch-key aspect to the convention. It is one thing to have this immersion inside the 4 walls of the convention center but the carry-over, the on the street conversations or the board games being played at the eateries down the street are what really make it an experience. 
it's not immersive to me when I have to stay miles away at an airport hotel and can't get transport to the convention easily.There is simply not enough space downtown anymore for convention attendees to stay. Something needs to be done.
I agree that something needs to be done. And i think we can mostly agree there is no simple solution. Indy has current plans under way to construct more downtown hotels (seen in various forums and news articles) but obviously these kinds of things take time. Ultimately though there will be some people that do not get a downtown hotel room and it comes down to deciding if a downtown room is the determining factor for your fun and enjoyment for the con. Over the last 10yrs I have stayed both downtown and outside the Loop (I-465) but no matter where i have stayed once i get downtown it is obvious that the entire "City" is adding to the experience. I am not arguing the housing issue, as it is an issue, but more so that re-location would detract from the overall "feel" or immersion of the con. At the end of the day the decision to move or not move GenCon is outside any of our hands. We know for the next few years it is to remain in Indy and we will all continue to either Win or Lose the housing lottery for these next few years. (Side Note: I do thoroughly enjoy the forums and the fact that there are soo many passionate people in the GenCon Community to debate these types of topics. I have not been to many other conventions (board gaming or otherwise) but i am hard pressed to believe their attendees would talk with such fervor and passion about the event itself.)
Unfortunately, it is only the threat of moving, backed up by the willingness to actually move, which will create changes. If Indy does not have to spend millions to upgrade their infrastructure...then they simply wont do so. Generally, govt does not spend such money until forced into it.Since Indy has it until 2021, Gencon should be actively seeking options. Gencon was very quick to threaten the move when they were bothered by Pence and the legislature...yet Gencon has said nothing public about the infrastructure issues.
 

Not so.  GenCon has not (at least in public) threatened to leave over hotel and housing availability and yet the city has over 21 hotel projects in various stages of planning/approvals that would add another 2401 rooms.  Indianapolis has the highest percentage of hotels used by conventions & convention related business (36.5%) in the country so there is incentive to get more hotel space built. 

Posted by jobeth66
#329

I wonder what the prices were at the Linq in Vegas during CES.  I'm betting they weren't under $100/night.

In fact, let's go check for CES 2018, which is January 9-12, 2018.

Hmmm.  Here's your "cheap hotel rooms" at the Linq for a comparable conference:

1/7 - $99 /night.  Not bad.
1/8 - $279/night. 
1/9 - $459/night.  WTF
1/10 - $459/night
1/11 - $329/night
1/12 - $249/night
1/13 - $209/night - There's your block rate pricing.

So, the Saturday night AFTER CES ends (in case you want to spend the weekend after CES) is when you see rates comparable to what we see in-block in Indy.

And don't forget that CES is Tues-Fri, not Thu-Su like GenCon.  Weekends on a large convention would garner even higher hotel rates.

The idea that there is a plethora of cheap and decent places to stay in Las Vegas during a large convention just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Posted by squirecam
#330

CES had a hotel block for 2017 and will again for 2018. 
 

Posted by jobeth66 squirecam
#331

squirecam wrote:
CES had a hotel block for 2017 and will again for 2018. 
 

And what are the rates?  Are they at or below GenCon rates in Indy?  Are there enough rooms within walking distance of the LVCC for 60k people at those rates?

Posted by sakurawinters jobeth66
#332

jobeth66 wrote:
squirecam wrote:
CES had a hotel block for 2017 and will again for 2018. 

And what are the rates?  Are they at or below GenCon rates in Indy?  Are there enough rooms within walking distance of the LVCC for 60k people at those rates?

Here's info on prices... http://www.ces.tech/Register-Plan/Hotel.aspx

So about nine of the 32 hotels listed are below or only slightly above Gen Con rates.  The rest range from mid 300's to 600, which is a yikes in my opinion.  My Las Vegas knowledge is low so I can't answer to walkability.

Posted by jobeth66 sakurawinters
#333

sakurawinters wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
squirecam wrote:
CES had a hotel block for 2017 and will again for 2018. 

And what are the rates?  Are they at or below GenCon rates in Indy?  Are there enough rooms within walking distance of the LVCC for 60k people at those rates?

Here's info on prices... http://www.ces.tech/Register-Plan/Hotel.aspxSo about nine of the 32 hotels listed are below or only slightly above Gen Con rates.  The rest range from mid 300's to 600, which is a yikes in my opinion.  My Las Vegas knowledge is low so I can't answer to walkability.

I'm not sure those are "block" rates per se, since the disclaimer is that prices may rise as it gets closer to January.  And I'm betting there aren't 60k rooms available on "hold" for CES participants, either.   (Note that the LVCC is not on the strip, getting there from the strip is generally not walkable, at least not in August for me!)  And ask the CES participants how easy getting Uber/Lyft/shuttles is during CES.  Everyone stays /away/ from the convention center unless they have to be there - the city is a mess.

Posted by gencon322198
#334

Gencon does not necessarily need "walkable distance hotels".  More accurately stated, it needs a situation where the travel time between hotel and convention is consistently convenient.

Walking under half a mile meets the criteria.  So does being within 10 miles and having reliable and fully staffed Lyft/taxis/Uber.  So does having shuttles/trains/ subways/buses/other that run frequent and reliable schedules between the locations with enough capacity.  Or even abundant  parking at the site would help.

Indy may or may not be a city with the most walkable hotels, but it has to be because it doesn't have the other infrastructure to service Gencon's current size.  Thus our problem.

Indy infrastructure is woefully inadequate now, but many cities are not.

Posted by squirecam jobeth66
#335

jobeth66 wrote:
sakurawinters wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
squirecam wrote:
CES had a hotel block for 2017 and will again for 2018. 

And what are the rates?  Are they at or below GenCon rates in Indy?  Are there enough rooms within walking distance of the LVCC for 60k people at those rates?

Here's info on prices... http://www.ces.tech/Register-Plan/Hotel.aspxSo about nine of the 32 hotels listed are below or only slightly above Gen Con rates.  The rest range from mid 300's to 600, which is a yikes in my opinion.  My Las Vegas knowledge is low so I can't answer to walkability.

I'm not sure those are "block" rates per se, since the disclaimer is that prices may rise as it gets closer to January.  And I'm betting there aren't 60k rooms available on "hold" for CES participants, either.   (Note that the LVCC is not on the strip, getting there from the strip is generally not walkable, at least not in August for me!)  And ask the CES participants how easy getting Uber/Lyft/shuttles is during CES.  Everyone stays /away/ from the convention center unless they have to be there - the city is a mess.
Try holding a convention for 180,000 people without issues...
CES 2017 marked the 50th anniversary of the largest global gathering of innovation and showcased the connected future of technology.
With more than 4,000 exhibiting companies and exhibit space of more than 2.6 million net square feet, CES 2017 was a record-breaker, welcoming the world’s biggest companies in addition to hosting more than 600 startups at the Eureka Park Marketplace.

More than 180,000 industry professionals, including more than 58,000 from outside the U.S., convened in Las Vegas to drive the ever-evolving global technology industry forward.
The numbers outlined below are highlights of the pre-audited attendance numbers. The Attendance Audit Summary will be available in May.

Posted by gencon322198
#336

With Gencon passes now getting capped, it is perhaps evidence that GC has officially outgrown Indy, and this is no longer just a housing issue.

We're all going to have to take a long honest look in the mirror and start weighing the cultural changes that would come from a city change against the benefits of allowing GC to continue to grow, have better commuting options, better housing, and other factors.  Would GC feel different in another city?  Yes.  Is it worth it to avoid the negatives?  Perhaps yes.

Maybe we can have 2 Gencons, one family friendly in Indy for half the size, and one adult focused in Vegas (or wherever) for half the size.  Win-win.

Posted by aaronmlopez gencon322198
#337

gencon322198 wrote:
With Gencon passes now getting capped, it is perhaps evidence that GC has officially outgrown Indy, and this is no longer just a housing issue.
We're all going to have to take a long honest look in the mirror and start weighing the cultural changes that would come from a city change against the benefits of allowing GC to continue to grow, have better commuting options, better housing, and other factors.  Would GC feel different in another city?  Yes.  Is it worth it to avoid the negatives?  Perhaps yes.
Maybe we can have 2 Gencons, one family friendly in Indy for half the size, and one adult focused in Vegas (or wherever) for half the size.  Win-win.

I am thinking the "possibility" of passes being capped this year is due to this being the 50th anniversary more so than just year-to-year growth. I imagine Gen Con 2018 will not have a similar announcement. Also, the article didn't say that passes WERE BEING capped, but that if the purchases continue at the same rate, then they may reach the point where they will have to cap them. I personally do not think it is a matter of the number of people that can fit into the combined venues (as per the fire code) but more likely it will be capped due to the actual printing of the badges and tickets not being able to be completed in time. It is one thing to have the capacity for 75k badges to be printed/sorted/mailed (as necessary) in about a one month period, but Gen Con may not have the ability to print 90k badges by the time Gen Con actually starts. 

Posted by gencon322198
#338

GC says that the cap is because of:

"To continue providing the best attendee experience we have decided to carefully control badge sales"

That sounds like they don't want things to get too crowded, not that they don't have time to print/mail that many badges.

It might be true that the 50th anniversary is an attendance cap, who knows.

Whether GC actually ends up at the cap or gets close to it, either way is evidence that the current venue cannot handle the demand from multiple angles.

GC is hopefully seeing this and planning 5 years ahead to make the important, hard, and possibly controversial decisions.

Posted by lore seeker
#339

I think it's juuuuust a bit early to call the possibility of hitting the cap proof that GenCon has outgrown Indy.

1. It hasn't hit the cap yet; it's just on course to do so.
2. This is GenCon #50; of course it's going to break attendance records.

Maybe if we actually do hit the cap, and do so for two or three years in a row, then we can start calling it too big for Indy.

Posted by tdb
#340

"To continue providing the best attendee experience" could mean almost anything, really.  It could mean there's concern about getting badges and tickets done in time.  It could mean they'd come up short on other printed materials (programs, coupon books, etc.)  It could mean that there wouldn't be enough employees and volunteers to deal with the workload. It could mean Crystal Caste couldn't bring enough commemorative D6's for everyone.  It could mean the ICC food kiosks would run out of cardboard pizza.  It could mean the gamer funk would reach lethal levels.  We don't know, really.

But, given that the downtown hotels sold out months before that announcement, I don't think it means "not enough hotel rooms". 

 

Posted by mhayward1978 gencon322198
#341

gencon322198 wrote:
GC says that the cap is because of:
"To continue providing the best attendee experience we have decided to carefully control badge sales"
That sounds like they don't want things to get too crowded, not that they don't have time to print/mail that many badges.
It might be true that the 50th anniversary is an attendance cap, who knows.
Whether GC actually ends up at the cap or gets close to it, either way is evidence that the current venue cannot handle the demand from multiple angles.
GC is hopefully seeing this and planning 5 years ahead to make the important, hard, and possibly controversial decisions.

Or... it could be a sales technique.

Buy now!  Supplies are limited (to what we can sell).  Badges may be capped! (at 5 times the number we've sold already...)

Posted by lore seeker mhayward1978
#342

mhayward1978 wrote:
gencon322198 wrote:
GC says that the cap is because of:
"To continue providing the best attendee experience we have decided to carefully control badge sales"
That sounds like they don't want things to get too crowded, not that they don't have time to print/mail that many badges.
It might be true that the 50th anniversary is an attendance cap, who knows.
Whether GC actually ends up at the cap or gets close to it, either way is evidence that the current venue cannot handle the demand from multiple angles.
GC is hopefully seeing this and planning 5 years ahead to make the important, hard, and possibly controversial decisions.

Or... it could be a sales technique.Buy now!  Supplies are limited (to what we can sell).  Badges may be capped! (at 5 times the number we've sold already...)

Eh, could be worse. They could go the Nintendo "artificial scarcity" route (if they ever do that, I'm gonna be pissed).

Posted by doombunny lore seeker
#343

father bloodlust wrote:
mhayward1978 wrote:
gencon322198 wrote:
GC says that the cap is because of:
"To continue providing the best attendee experience we have decided to carefully control badge sales"
That sounds like they don't want things to get too crowded, not that they don't have time to print/mail that many badges.
It might be true that the 50th anniversary is an attendance cap, who knows.
Whether GC actually ends up at the cap or gets close to it, either way is evidence that the current venue cannot handle the demand from multiple angles.
GC is hopefully seeing this and planning 5 years ahead to make the important, hard, and possibly controversial decisions.

Or... it could be a sales technique.Buy now!  Supplies are limited (to what we can sell).  Badges may be capped! (at 5 times the number we've sold already...)

Eh, could be worse. They could go the Nintendo "artificial scarcity" route (if they ever do that, I'm gonna be pissed).
Nintendo doesn't actually do that. They get accused of it all the time, but the actual problem for them is that they price popular things low enough that they are pretty much guaranteed to sell out. At any rate Gen con has likely always had a cap it's just never been likely to hit it before. There is a limit on how many people can be in the ICC after all and as well as a limit on how many people GenCon and ICC's staff can realistically serve.

Posted by wendel squirecam
#344

squirecam wrote:
lbxzero wrote:
qstor wrote:
Outside the block? There's NO downtown rooms outside the block.

There are a few rooms outside the block.  Those are typically the more costly suites.I will say this in GenCon's defense, they are trying to work with what they have.  Every major city has this problem of limited hotel rooms in walking distance.  They were hoping that improved transit services will help solve the issue, but it is not helping anything.  I agree with the 3-day minimum requirement for downtown rooms, but I do believe people are finding ways to bypass the enforcement somehow.  I have a series of suggestions to give these guys, which I think deserve its own thread.  Every year keeps looking to be worse than the year before.  I feel they missed an obvious opportunity here to relieve some of the tension.
Overall, it is always this bad, and it will always be this bad.
what transit services?there is no con shuttle. They left everyone at the rng mercy of the hotel timer.
maybe now people will understand why folks said gencon must consider moving. Indy does not have sufficient hotel space. Without a reliable shuttle it's only getting worse.
It is really unfortunate that Indianapolis hotels do not offer shuttle services. The city shuttle services are terrible. The hotel situation is just one reason that the convention needs to move out of Indianapolis.

Posted by gencon322198 lore seeker
#345

father bloodlust wrote:
I think it's juuuuust a bit early to call the possibility of hitting the cap proof that GenCon has outgrown Indy.
1. It hasn't hit the cap yet; it's just on course to do so.
2. This is GenCon #50; of course it's going to break attendance records.
Maybe if we actually do hit the cap, and do so for two or three years in a row, then we can start calling it too big for Indy.
I agree that 2017 attendance could be an aberration, but maybe it's not given the doubling of attendance in 5 years.

The problem is that GC contracts out 5ish years in advance.  So if we wait 3 years to confirm that attendance stays at the cap, then we're talking 8 intervening years of the same problems in Indy before a move can take place.  It's a tough decision to have to make, but the red flags are starting to fly high from multiple angles.

Perhaps if post-convention there are floods of complaints about lines and crowded walkways and hour waits to eat, no parking spaces, and trouble getting Uber's/Lyfts/taxis thus missing games, then the situation will be more clear.  The problem is all that could be explained away as being 50th anniversary, thus deferring any action.

I think Indy should be pressured by GC to provide sufficient shuttling to outer hotels in the intervening years to show their good faith in addressing the issue.

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