Regarding the coronavirus survey, policies need to have no exceptions or they are useless.
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Posted by kar8a xanathon

xanathon wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
I’m not doubting that Gen con happens I am starting to have many doubts however on what exactly it will look like. It doesn’t seem like it will be anything like what we have grown used to.
The immediate answer is to not allow anyone in the convention center that cannot show proof of being vaccinated.  As to how they go about doing that, well I don't have an answer for you because I don't work on the planning portion obviously.  I don't know how the convention center would handle this as it would require more staff working the event.If the staff can be increased to handle this then it should be able to be handled.
Look at it this way though to see the point I am trying to make.  There are people who have no concept of basic hygiene that are in abundance at Gen Con.  If these people can't put on deodorant I seriously doubt that they will get vaccinated.  There has to be some sort of measure to reduce the risk to people and not allowing those who are not vaccinated is the easiest way to do this.  Again I am not saying this because I am worried about myself.  I am concerned for others as I am in very good heath.  
I also think by not allowing those that aren't vaccinated will also eliminate those that will argue against wearing a mask because it violates their rights, those that think that COVID is fake news, and those that simply don't care if they infect other people.

Policing vaccine cards is probably impossible - even now, the internet is rife with articles about protecting that info b/c it's so easy to take and/or fake.  If you think someone, like Comic Book Man (from the Simpsons), won't put on deodorant, that same someone will just get a fake Covid card.  With every county in the US giving out different ones, it's literally child's play to do.

It's hard to fake a mask (if that is necessary) - everyone in the whole Con sees it.  It's hard to fake a facility and/or room cap - it's counted and needs only 1 person to count.  It's hard to fake a badge if overall badges are limited - everyone sees those, too.  Etc, etc...  

When you put in place policies, you consider effectiveness vs efficiency (and then add in legality and expense).  But no matter what policy, nothing will be perfect. 

If Comic Book Man is too much of a risk for someone individually to attend, they probably should pass on 2021, since you literally can't police out the "exception" type of person.  Something will fail at least once - ask Disney and their 1st day after the rain storm line at Seven Dwarfs Mine Train (and that was their own employees).  So, there will be risk, however slight, but it will be the best that any reasonable person/company could do.  Attendees have to accept that if they want to attend - no one and nothing can be perfect.

And then I'll start repeating myself, so I'll stop:)...

PS - That said, if Gencon wants to take on the task, well, my spouse is trying to figure out how to jump the line now so he's good either way:)...

Posted by squirecam mikeboozer

mikeboozer wrote:
Good discussion so far, thanks for that.
To clarify a few points. Gen Con's survey is intended to get feedback on how you the attendee feel about various possible scenarios.
However there are things we will not have control over and will be mandated by whatever policies are put forth by the health department and or Governors office. If for example you must be masked to attend then you must, end of discussion.
Mike
I appreciate that. 

I was wondering about the outdoor ideas. Would that Be utilizing the area where the food trucks park (so essentially no trucks there) or are there other options, such as perhaps the baseball stadium?

Posted by xanathon kar8a

kar8a wrote:
xanathon wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
I’m not doubting that Gen con happens I am starting to have many doubts however on what exactly it will look like. It doesn’t seem like it will be anything like what we have grown used to.
The immediate answer is to not allow anyone in the convention center that cannot show proof of being vaccinated.  As to how they go about doing that, well I don't have an answer for you because I don't work on the planning portion obviously.  I don't know how the convention center would handle this as it would require more staff working the event.If the staff can be increased to handle this then it should be able to be handled.
Look at it this way though to see the point I am trying to make.  There are people who have no concept of basic hygiene that are in abundance at Gen Con.  If these people can't put on deodorant I seriously doubt that they will get vaccinated.  There has to be some sort of measure to reduce the risk to people and not allowing those who are not vaccinated is the easiest way to do this.  Again I am not saying this because I am worried about myself.  I am concerned for others as I am in very good heath.  
I also think by not allowing those that aren't vaccinated will also eliminate those that will argue against wearing a mask because it violates their rights, those that think that COVID is fake news, and those that simply don't care if they infect other people.

Policing vaccine cards is probably impossible - even now, the internet is rife with articles about protecting that info b/c it's so easy to take and/or fake.  If you think someone, like Comic Book Man (from the Simpsons), won't put on deodorant, that same someone will just get a fake Covid card.  With every county in the US giving out different ones, it's literally child's play to do.It's hard to fake a mask (if that is necessary) - everyone in the whole Con sees it.  It's hard to fake a facility and/or room cap - it's counted and needs only 1 person to count.  It's hard to fake a badge if overall badges are limited - everyone sees those, too.  Etc, etc...  
When you put in place policies, you consider effectiveness vs efficiency (and then add in legality and expense).  But no matter what policy, nothing will be perfect. 
If Comic Book Man is too much of a risk for someone individually to attend, they probably should pass on 2021, since you literally can't police out the "exception" type of person.  Something will fail at least once - ask Disney and their 1st day after the rain storm line at Seven Dwarfs Mine Train (and that was their own employees).  So, there will be risk, however slight, but it will be the best that any reasonable person/company could do.  Attendees have to accept that if they want to attend - no one and nothing can be perfect.
And then I'll start repeating myself, so I'll stop:)...
PS - That said, if Gencon wants to take on the task, well, my spouse is trying to figure out how to jump the line now so he's good either way:)...
I agree that if there is a way to fake something there are people that will do so.  As I said earlier I'm not a part of the planning process so I was just going with initial thoughts on this.  

I think its the central problem that Gen Con is facing.  How do you have a safe convention knowing that there will be people who complain no matter what is put into place, as well as those that will find a way to fake through whatever is put into place.  I'm sure the last thing they want is to put a mask mandate into place only to have to police people who refuse to wear them due to their inability to think of others.

 

Posted by kevinrg xanathon

xanathon wrote:
=inheritI'm sure the last thing they want is to put a mask mandate into place only to have to police people who refuse to wear them due to their inability to think of others.
 

Pretty sure that if there is a mask mandate there will be plenty of people doing their best  Donald Sutherland's "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" finger point scream imitation if they see someone without a mask.

 

Posted by chaos62417

I think a big data point is going to be the NCAA tourney next month. 64 teams, all of the coaches, players, staff, families so we will see a nice large group of people. I saw that they are allowing 25% capacity at the games so you will see people seated in close proximity. if that tourney can go off and there is no "outbreak" or other major issue I believe that will be a huge step in securing a normal timeline and running of Gen Con.

lets all cross our dice rolling fingers that next month sees a continuation of decreasing numbers across the board and the first kind of big gathering go off relatively cleanly.

Posted by kar8a chaos62417

chaos62417 wrote:
I think a big data point is going to be the NCAA tourney next month. 64 teams, all of the coaches, players, staff, families so we will see a nice large group of people. I saw that they are allowing 25% capacity at the games so you will see people seated in close proximity. if that tourney can go off and there is no "outbreak" or other major issue I believe that will be a huge step in securing a normal timeline and running of Gen Con.
lets all cross our dice rolling fingers that next month sees a continuation of decreasing numbers across the board and the first kind of big gathering go off relatively cleanly.

I was just telling my spouse that today:).  With the amount of tourists, indoor time, and use of the Gencon designated sites, if it goes well, it's a great sign for a minimum similar capacity.  It's even the "same length of use" for the 1st week, with the 1st 4 days of games pretty much a 12pm-1am constant use of the facilities.

It will also show if the city itself can handle at least 25% capacity needs for bathrooms, food, clean hotel rooms, transit, etc in its current state...

If we don't get a "Gencon's a go" email before the tourney, I gotta think, if the 1st week of the tourney goes well, we'll get one by Final Four weekend.  

Posted by chaos62417 kar8a

kar8a wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
I think a big data point is going to be the NCAA tourney next month. 64 teams, all of the coaches, players, staff, families so we will see a nice large group of people. I saw that they are allowing 25% capacity at the games so you will see people seated in close proximity. if that tourney can go off and there is no "outbreak" or other major issue I believe that will be a huge step in securing a normal timeline and running of Gen Con.
lets all cross our dice rolling fingers that next month sees a continuation of decreasing numbers across the board and the first kind of big gathering go off relatively cleanly.

I was just telling my spouse that today:).  With the amount of tourists, indoor time, and use of the Gencon designated sites, if it goes well, it's a great sign for a minimum similar capacity.  It's even the "same length of use" for the 1st week, with the 1st 4 days of games pretty much a 12pm-1am constant use of the facilities.It will also show if the city itself can handle at least 25% capacity needs for bathrooms, food, clean hotel rooms, transit, etc in its current state...
If we don't get a "Gencon's a go" email before the tourney, I gotta think, if the 1st week of the tourney goes well, we'll get one by Final Four weekend.  
My expectation is two weeks after the tourney ends. so start of April. that will be an additional 6 weeks of time to go by for numbers to continue to go down, more vaccines and we will get to see results from all of the people having gathered.

I am hopeful though, i think its really only masks, social distancing and such being mandated obviously along with the capacity limits. Hopefully if there is Capacity limits gen con limits the badge sales to the capacity and doesnt allow tons of sales with a waiting line to get into the hall. Of course for all we know the number of people already holding 2021 badges may exceed the capacity limit that would be enforced.

Posted by kar8a

I have to think many of those holding 2021 badges may still go for a refund or a rollover, even for this year, so I think even with capacity limits, there will be badge sales.

I mean, probably most international folks will have to cancel or roll b/c the last thing to get back up to normal speed will probably be international travel (see the issues cruise ships are having now).  And I don't think many will take the risk that the "closed" or "limited" borders will be ended in time.    

Posted by kar8a kar8a

kar8a wrote:Double post.

Posted by a dark rider on a pale ... unicorn? kar8a

kar8a wrote:
I mean, probably most international folks will have to cancel or roll b/c the last thing to get back up to normal speed will probably be international travel (see the issues cruise ships are having now).  And I don't think many will take the risk that the "closed" or "limited" borders will be ended in time.    

That's the situation I'm in with attending from the UK; 
There's no guarantee at this stage that I can get the vaccine with enough time for it to get to full effect, or that I'll even be able to enter the US if I did manage to get the thing.

Posted by father bloodlust chaos62417

chaos62417 wrote:Of course for all we know the number of people already holding 2021 badges may exceed the capacity limit that would be enforced.

Frak, I didn't think of that...

Didn't know if I'd be attending Evo or Gen Con in 2021 so I didn't roll over my badge. Seeing that Evo hasn't updated its Twitter account or website since the end of June 2020 I think it's safe to say it'll be Gen Con (if I can, given the point in the quoted post).

Posted by squirecam chaos62417

chaos62417 wrote:
kar8a wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
I think a big data point is going to be the NCAA tourney next month. 64 teams, all of the coaches, players, staff, families so we will see a nice large group of people. I saw that they are allowing 25% capacity at the games so you will see people seated in close proximity. if that tourney can go off and there is no "outbreak" or other major issue I believe that will be a huge step in securing a normal timeline and running of Gen Con.
lets all cross our dice rolling fingers that next month sees a continuation of decreasing numbers across the board and the first kind of big gathering go off relatively cleanly.

I was just telling my spouse that today:).  With the amount of tourists, indoor time, and use of the Gencon designated sites, if it goes well, it's a great sign for a minimum similar capacity.  It's even the "same length of use" for the 1st week, with the 1st 4 days of games pretty much a 12pm-1am constant use of the facilities.It will also show if the city itself can handle at least 25% capacity needs for bathrooms, food, clean hotel rooms, transit, etc in its current state...
If we don't get a "Gencon's a go" email before the tourney, I gotta think, if the 1st week of the tourney goes well, we'll get one by Final Four weekend.  
My expectation is two weeks after the tourney ends. so start of April. that will be an additional 6 weeks of time to go by for numbers to continue to go down, more vaccines and we will get to see results from all of the people having gathered.I am hopeful though, i think its really only masks, social distancing and such being mandated obviously along with the capacity limits. Hopefully if there is Capacity limits gen con limits the badge sales to the capacity and doesnt allow tons of sales with a waiting line to get into the hall. Of course for all we know the number of people already holding 2021 badges may exceed the capacity limit that would be enforced.
Yeah I'm pretty sure current rollover badge sales exceed 25 or even 50% capacity.
 

Posted by kevinrg squirecam


Yeah I'm pretty sure current rollover badge sales exceed 25 or even 50% capacity.
 

50% is what, 30-35K?  Seems like alot.   Not sure what percent actually rolled over and how many cashed out and not sure how many badges they initially sold even since I know there were people even in Jan last year that cast a wary eye and held off buying.   Of course, even if there were that many, once you take out the people that are not attending in 2021 no matter what along with the people that won't attend with whatever rules are in place, my guess would be under whatever they will allow. 

Curiously, on the ICCLOS website, I noticed that Gen Con doesn't appear.  Starting to wonder if it really could push.   I'd think that all parties want as much attendance as possible just for the economic boost.  A 45-60 day.   Yes, there is the Lucas Field dynamic, but that could be worked around easy enough.

Posted by malfakter

Some other good news came out today.

1. Pfizer announced 200 million more doses will be shipped in May, 2 months early.
2. Gov. Holcomb signed a bill that protects businesses from civil liability, so long as they are compliant with CDC guidelines.
3. The Covid numbers in Indiana have been falling consistently for the past 6 weeks.  Indiana's positivity rate is at 4.4%.

Add in the news about the NCAA attendance capacity, and all of these things are good things for a physical Gen Con this year.

Posted by kidlidar

For those of you talking about rollovers...

don't forget the GM's who rely on running events to get their badge.  (Like me and my family)  those were never issued.

Posted by chaoticneutral262

The current outlook for vaccine supplies (source):

Posted by kar8a

Yeah, if it's on, my spouse is planning to GM, and we are normal Origins GMs/attendees (who can't go there b/c of the move to fall), so we also don't have Gencon badges yet.  

But again, between international folks possibly having to sit out (for the reasons above), and fewer sales in 2020 (and then even fewer rolled over), I have to think they'll have the ability for some sales in a possible reduced capacity CON (and it may not need to be reduced much, or any - by August, we could see masks and sanitizer and spacing without capacity reductions or with 75% capacity, or even fewer restrictions, etc), even if it's only for GMs and their families.  

PS - If it's on, we'll bring the ICONS supers RPG fun for adults and tweens/teens to GENCON:).  These always 100%-original runs have happened at Origins for 6+ years and my spouse has GM'ed over a decade of supers RPGs at Origins, and his runs are beloved by kids and adults.  He is very excited to finally hit his bucket list event of Gencon (take the lemon of Origins moving and make lemonade in Indy:)...if it's allowed to happen this year:)...

Posted by chaos62417

Dice Tower east was cancelled today, was supposed to happen first week of July. Tom did cite planning concerns as a factor in needing to cancel this early. Makes me slightly worried as Gen Con is what 20x the size of that? guess we got another data point.

Posted by squirecam chaos62417

chaos62417 wrote:
Dice Tower east was cancelled today, was supposed to happen first week of July. Tom did cite planning concerns as a factor in needing to cancel this early. Makes me slightly worried as Gen Con is what 20x the size of that? guess we got another data point.
Its simply not profitable to run a convention for 2000 people if you have to have all of the safety features we've been discussing. 

Gencon could be much different, even at 25-30k regarding profitability.

Posted by ytuni

Something to consider...even if Gen Con itself puts policies into place to protect us attendees, surrounding businesses might not have the same policies. If you are high risk, not vaccinated, cannot/willnot wear a mask, or don't want to follow whatever policies Gen Con puts into place regardless of where you are in Indy, then you probably should not attend. Policies only work if everyone abides by them. I look forward to seeing what policies Gen Con puts into place then will decide if I am willing to abide by them and therefore whether or not I should go.

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