Regarding the coronavirus survey, policies need to have no exceptions or they are useless.
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Posted by squirecam kevinrg

kevinrg wrote:
squirecam wrote:
=inheritI dont see why 25000 to 30000 people cant attend the convention if they are vaccinated. As to requiring it, you would agree to the terms and conditions of the badge license. No mask or no vaccination would result in revocation of badge privileges. It's not that difficult. =inheritNo one has a "right" to attend the convention, so they have every right to require policies that would allow for a safe business to operate.  =inheritThis isnt like a grocery store open to anyone. You need a badge to attend. 

I see no reason why a grocery store couldn't require a vaccine to enter.   The badge is irrelevant really since it is a privately owned business and businesses put rules in place to enter their businesses all the time.    A business could charge a fee to enter and issue a badge if they wanted... just from a business standpoint that would be a bad decision.  (Unless all the businesses started doing it... but let's not give them any ideas...)I was speaking solely to the fact that right now, they are EUA vaccines which is a pretty big gray area as to what is legally allowed under a EUA for requirements.   (I sure don't have those answers).   
Obviously a grocery store can require a mask due to public health. But there is difference in a place open to the public, which a grocery store is, and gencon, which is not open to the public and requires a badge license to enter.

I'm not sure how a court would rule on it, but I think the distinction matters. Someone needs a necessity (food) and i think a court might find a vaccine restriction unreasonable for necessities of daily living. 

Alternatively you dont have to go to gencon or use air travel. These require a purchase along with compliance with their rules. As long as it isnt discrimination they can set health protections for attendees. 

Posted by kevinrg matthias9

matthias9 wrote:
Emergency Use Authorization is just with respect to the legality to bring the drug to market (in the U.S.).  It has zero to do with whether Gen Con, an airline or a school could require it (or anything else).  

Disagree and not what I've read on EUA vaccines.   For a Dr. Cohn at the CDC, under an EUA, “vaccines are not allowed to be mandatory. So, early in this vaccination phase, individuals will have to be consented and they won’t be able to be mandatory.”     However, that statement has never been tested legally from what I've also read.

And don't take my comments as a 'OMG they can't do this!' or a projection of what I would/wouldn't do personally.   Officially I'm in the I don't care... their party.   I just like discussing logistics/legality of everything which I find interesting.
At the end of the day, their party, whenever they set the rules I'll figure out if it is feasible for me to attend (will I be able to get a shot by then) or will even be desirable for me to attend based on the rules in play.

I do agree though, I do not envy their position whatever it is because they are damned if they do, damned if they don't with probably 25% on each side.     

 

Posted by kar8a kevinrg

kevinrg wrote:
matthias9 wrote:
Emergency Use Authorization is just with respect to the legality to bring the drug to market (in the U.S.).  It has zero to do with whether Gen Con, an airline or a school could require it (or anything else).  

Disagree and not what I've read on EUA vaccines.   For a Dr. Cohn at the CDC, under an EUA, “vaccines are not allowed to be mandatory. So, early in this vaccination phase, individuals will have to be consented and they won’t be able to be mandatory.”     However, that statement has never been tested legally from what I've also read.And don't take my comments as a 'OMG they can't do this!' or a projection of what I would/wouldn't do personally.   Officially I'm in the I don't care... their party.   I just like discussing logistics/legality of everything which I find interesting.
At the end of the day, their party, whenever they set the rules I'll figure out if it is feasible for me to attend (will I be able to get a shot by then) or will even be desirable for me to attend based on the rules in play.
I do agree though, I do not envy their position whatever it is because they are damned if they do, damned if they don't with probably 25% on each side.     
 

Good news, though, is that either choice makes 75% of folks happy, so they can't lose on the happiness scale:)...

Posted by kevinrg kar8a

kar8a wrote:
=inheritGood news, though, is that either choice makes 75% of folks happy, so they can't lose on the happiness scale:)...

*L*   I like the way you think...

Posted by technoir

Just wanted to drop some info.... over this last week, we climbed to vaccinating right about 2.5mil people a day. 
At this pace alone we will hit 300m with at least one shot by June 14th. 
 

Posted by jimdigris

I just read an article that said that the CDC indicated that only 22% of the population has been vaccinated.  Also, the drop in new cases has leveled off.

Posted by donaldbain

Look for a surge two weeks after St Pats.  After that?

Posted by arcus donaldbain

donaldbain wrote:
Look for a surge two weeks after St Pats.  After that?
I’m not even sure there will be one after St. Patty’s day. I’m in PA and you cannot sit at the bar or stand around in a bar right now. You still have social distancing with tables when you eat out so I don’t see many people going out for the holiday. The 17th is also on a  Wednesday so not as many people will
be having parties with most having work the next day.

Posted by arcus donaldbain

“Obviously a grocery store can require a mask due to public health. But there is difference in a place open to the public, which a grocery store is, and gencon, which is not open to the public and requires a badge license to enter.”

Just a FYI, a badge is not required to enter the convention center so it is pretty much a public area until try to enter a room, the vendor hall, or gaming area.

Posted by ckalinwi arcus

arcus wrote:
Just a FYI, a badge is not required to enter the convention center so it is pretty much a public area until try to enter a room, the vendor hall, or gaming area.
Presumably ICC can make and enforce its own rules for stepping inside the building.  Public access, not public property.
You'd probably want Gen Con and ICC to coordinate that so you _don't_ have the situation of someone who can't/won't comply with Gen Con rules hanging around inside the ICC - if they don't want to mask/vaccinate/whatever the rule is, they can (not) do it outside. 

Posted by arcus ckalinwi

ckalinwi wrote:
arcus wrote:
Just a FYI, a badge is not required to enter the convention center so it is pretty much a public area until try to enter a room, the vendor hall, or gaming area.
Presumably ICC can make and enforce its own rules for stepping inside the building.  Public access, not public property.
You'd probably want Gen Con and ICC to coordinate that so you _don't_ have the situation of someone who can't/won't comply with Gen Con rules hanging around inside the ICC - if they don't want to mask/vaccinate/whatever the rule is, they can (not) do it outside. 
This very true. They would most likely limit access points, funnel people through lines and check for badges, masks, etc... I know this could be a possibility, but the lines to get in with the weather in August will be brutal.

Posted by squirecam

Great news !

The CDC says fully vaccinated people CAN gather indoors without masks.

Given this I cannot see how vaccinated people cannot attend Gencon. If Gencon does require proof of vaccination then this event can go on just like in previous years with no other restrictions.

The following recommendations apply to non-healthcare settings.Fully vaccinated people can:


  • Visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
  • Visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk for severe COVID-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
  • Refrain from quarantine and testing following a known exposure if asymptomatic

https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/03/08/health/covid-19-vaccine-cdc-guidelines-fully-vaccinated/index.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16152275115588&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2021%2F03%2F08%2Fhealth%2Fcovid-19-vaccine-cdc-guidelines-fully-vaccinated%2Findex.html
 

Posted by austicke squirecam

squirecam wrote:The CDC says fully vaccinated people CAN gather indoors without masks.

You forgot to include the part that says, "For now, fully vaccinated people should continue to...Avoid medium- and large-sized in-person gatherings."
 

Posted by squirecam austicke

austicke wrote:
squirecam wrote:The CDC says fully vaccinated people CAN gather indoors without masks.

You forgot to include the part that says, "For now, fully vaccinated people should continue to...Avoid medium- and large-sized in-person gatherings."
yes, where unvaccinated people would be. Gencon cant do anything about that. If people choose not to take a vaccine then that's their choice. But it shouldn't stop others who have been vaccinated from playing games together without social distancing.

If this holds. Gencon will now have to choose. Have a vaccination requirement with no social distancing (but maybe still masks) or no requirement but social distancing, masks. Temperature checks, etc. Assuming that is allowed.

I'm guessing the ultimate recommendation will be to allow conventions with vaccination proof. It's too difficult to have attendance limits and distancing because it reduces profit and increases expenses.

Posted by mikeboozer

While the CDC guidelines are certainly important and may guide what happens locally we should reiterate that...

"At the very least we will be complying with all guidelines that are covered in the jurisdiction of the place we are holding the convention. The state, city, and ICC health standards that are in place to run the show. There really isn't a discussion on this point as it is mandatory for the show to happen."

Mike

Posted by squirecam mikeboozer

mikeboozer wrote:
While the CDC guidelines are certainly important and may guide what happens locally we should reiterate that...
"At the very least we will be complying with all guidelines that are covered in the jurisdiction of the place we are holding the convention. The state, city, and ICC health standards that are in place to run the show. There really isn't a discussion on this point as it is mandatory for the show to happen."
Mike
oh certainly. Which is why I thought masks might still be required. The restaurants may still have the mask requirements because unvaccinated people could be there. 

But if Gencon has a choice between 45000 fully vacciated attendees with perhaps masks, or a socially distanced con with 25% of that, then the finances are clear. One option is financially viable. One likely isnt.

Posted by squirecam arcus

arcus wrote:
ckalinwi wrote:
arcus wrote:
Just a FYI, a badge is not required to enter the convention center so it is pretty much a public area until try to enter a room, the vendor hall, or gaming area.
Presumably ICC can make and enforce its own rules for stepping inside the building.  Public access, not public property.
You'd probably want Gen Con and ICC to coordinate that so you _don't_ have the situation of someone who can't/won't comply with Gen Con rules hanging around inside the ICC - if they don't want to mask/vaccinate/whatever the rule is, they can (not) do it outside. 
This very true. They would most likely limit access points, funnel people through lines and check for badges, masks, etc... I know this could be a possibility, but the lines to get in with the weather in August will be brutal.
I think people will be fine with masks required until you get to the gaming area. They will still need them when leaving the convention to eat anyway. Because non vaccinated people could be eating there too.

But clearly the odds of Gencon happening have gotten better.

Posted by bigjohn arcus

arcus wrote:This very true. They would most likely limit access points, funnel people through lines and check for badges, masks, etc... I know this could be a possibility, but the lines to get in with the weather in August will be brutal.
I don't know if limiting access to the ICC would be feasible.  There are too many entrances and access walkways, there would have to be a huge increase in security personnel or they would have to restrict the entrances which would result in long lines.  Waiting in lines just to get into the ICC would ruin the experience for me.  Being able to quickly get around to events in other buildings or grab something across the street to eat, get some fresh air, or stop by your downtown hotel are some of the qualities that makes Gencon in Indy a great convention.

I think Gencon should stick to the minimum restrictions required by the government and the venue.  I was at a trade show at the state fairgrounds in Indy a week ago and there were social distancing, face mask, and temperature check requirements there.  Distancing forced a move to a larger than normal building and the aisles were at least 20 ft wide.  Face masks were required at the door but they can't police people when they're inside.

Posted by squirecam bigjohn

bigjohn wrote:
arcus wrote:This very true. They would most likely limit access points, funnel people through lines and check for badges, masks, etc... I know this could be a possibility, but the lines to get in with the weather in August will be brutal.
Face masks were required at the door but they can't police people when they're inside.
And this is where the problem is. Yes, you CAN police people inside to comply with the ICC rules. If those require a mask, then the person going around checking badges can check and see if a mask is being worn.

All attendees agree to comply with the attendance policies of the ICC. Otherwise they shouldn't go. Or they should lose their badge privileges by refusing to comply.

Posted by njseahawksfan squirecam

squirecam wrote:
bigjohn wrote:
arcus wrote:This very true. They would most likely limit access points, funnel people through lines and check for badges, masks, etc... I know this could be a possibility, but the lines to get in with the weather in August will be brutal.
Face masks were required at the door but they can't police people when they're inside.
And this is where the problem is. Yes, you CAN police people inside to comply with the ICC rules. If those require a mask, then the person going around checking badges can check and see if a mask is being worn.All attendees agree to comply with the attendance policies of the ICC. Otherwise they shouldn't go. Or they should lose their badge privileges by refusing to comply.
Agreed, and I would point out that something that GenCon will need to thoughtfully consider is "what do we do with the chuds that refuse to comply?".  It's unfortunate, but it is a very real concern, and could actually tip the scales away from holding the convention.

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