Regarding the coronavirus survey, policies need to have no exceptions or they are useless.
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Posted by kar8a

States are also starting to pick up steam removing restrictions.
Mississippi is fully opening tomorrow.
Texas is following soon afterwards.
Lousiana just moved to their Phase 3.
There is a strong moving trend to openness and readiness which probably won't reverse, if it will at all, til the next flu season (which would also be Covid season, if it makes a resurgence) Oct-March next year...

Posted by father bloodlust matthias9

matthias9 wrote:
Biden just announced a major partnership with Merck and Johnson & Johnson to deliver the newly approved J&J vaccine.  According to Biden, there will be enough vaccine for American adults by the end of May.  Assuming that is true, it seems like Gen Con could realistically operate in a post-vaccine world.
It will be interesting to see what the public health recommendations are in a situation where everyone (adults, anyway) who wants a vaccine will have had one.

It's definitely good news, but I would point out that there's a difference between having the vaccines available and the shots being administered. We might have enough doses for everyone by the end of May (I really hope we do), but getting them all into peoples' systems will take time. According to bloomberg.com, the seven day average as of today is 1.94 million doses per day; hopefully that can be cranked up even more.

Posted by father bloodlust kar8a

kar8a wrote:
States are also starting to pick up steam removing restrictions.
Mississippi is fully opening tomorrow.
Texas is following soon afterwards.
Lousiana just moved to their Phase 3.
There is a strong moving trend to openness and readiness which probably won't reverse, if it will at all, til the next flu season (which would also be Covid season, if it makes a resurgence) Oct-March next year...

That's...not a good thing right now, though. We're administering the vaccines at a decent rate, but the virus isn't even close to eradicated.  And the more it spreads, the more chances it has to mutate.

Posted by rayken

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Posted by jimdigris

I'm seeing polls that say only about half of the population is willing to get vaccinated.  That is not enough for herd immunity.  

Posted by squirecam jimdigris

jimdigris wrote:
I'm seeing polls that say only about half of the population is willing to get vaccinated.  That is not enough for herd immunity.  
Gencon cannot operate under the assumption that people wont comply or take precautions to save their own health. Nor should they have to.

If Gencon decides that vaccinations are necessary to attend, then people can choose not to get vaccinated. And thus choose not to go.

Herd immunity in that instance would be that the attendees have all been vaccinated. What the general population who isnt attending does or does not do shouldn't be a concern.

Posted by knuteski

Or Gen Con could decide to not require that vaccinations are necessary to attend and the <20% (We gamers are far more likely that the average person to get the vaccine) who didn't get the vaccine are taking their health in their own hands. 

I have made the tough decision that once I'm fully vaccinated (sometime in June I'm guessing), I cannot no longer be a bleeding heart and worry about infecting someone who refuses to get theirself vaccinated.  I have sat in my front room for 12 months watching multiple 50+ person parties at the houses across the street (including one wedding) and seen enough non-socially distanced gatherings during my walks, store trips, etc to care any longer if me being vaccinated will put them at risk if they won't get the vaccine.  I will, of course, wear a mask as needed.

As an aside, I think I reached I was pushed over the line last week at Costco.  My wife and I recently converted to double masking.  Well, we pass a teenager and her dad.  The teen has her mask on...her head (yes, the top of her head).  My wife clearly hears her say, "Dad!  Check them out, they're wearing 2 masks...LOSERS!"  At that moment, I decided I can no longer worry about people that are not worrying about themselves or their families. 

Posted by the chronek

Making vaccinations mandatory, which I entirely agree with, would in all likelihood preclude families with younger children from attending Gen Con this year, if it even happens. The most recent news I read about vaccines for kids younger than 12 states that the soonest Covid vaccines will be available for them would be late this year or early next year. As the dad of a younger kid, I'm not even considering going to large events like Gen Con with my family until he has the vaccine. And there are plenty of families with younger kids who attend Gen Con.

Knuteski, I agree with you about not caring about consequences for the deliberately, proudly ignorant. But as long as we have at least one unvaccinated person in our house, my family will proceed with caution. That means no in-person Gen Con for us this year.

Posted by knuteski

I agree with your cautious approach.   I was just thinking from the convention's perspective, it's still worth it to hold it.  Unfortunately, due to no child vaccines there'll be many that can't come this year.   But, there'll still be more than enough to hold the convention.  It'll just be closer in size to the early Indianapolis / late Milwaukee days. 

Posted by kar8a

Kids under 16 may never be approved for a Covid vaccine - it's dumb to set a policy that they would need them when receiving them may be forever impossible (just b/c they run a trial doesn't mean you get approval from a trial...and most trials take years, not weeks/months when they don't need to be expedited).

Just like the Shingles vaccine is only for those 50+, the Prevnar 23 is for 65+ (and both are also for immunocompromised adults) and the Meningococcal vaccine is for 16+ and the HPV vaccine is for 11 to about 35, some vaccines are just for certain ages.  

There's no way kids will need a vaccine for this Con if it runs.  Too many of the staff and volunteers probably have kids, and you can't run the Con without those adults.

 

Posted by squirecam kar8a

kar8a wrote:
Kids under 16 may never be approved for a Covid vaccine - it's dumb to set a policy that they would need them when receiving them may be forever impossible (just b/c they run a trial doesn't mean you get approval from a trial...and most trials take years, not weeks/months when they don't need to be expedited).
Just like the Shingles vaccine is only for those 50+, the Prevnar 23 is for 65+ (and both are also for immunocompromised adults) and the Meningococcal vaccine is for 16+ and the HPV vaccine is for 11 to about 35, some vaccines are just for certain ages.  
There's no way kids will need a vaccine for this Con if it runs.  Too many of the staff and volunteers probably have kids, and you can't run the Con without those adults.
 
yeah I cant see requiring vaccines for those under 18. It's impossible for them to get them. And if the CDC says it's safe for them to be in school then it should be safe enough for them at a convention.

Obviously parents have to take this into consideration when attending or allowing their children to attend.

Posted by technoir

We're honestly talking in circles and repeating things already said. 
Over 
and Over. 
I get it. We all have our opinions on this, and we've said them. There's no reason to resay them if you've already expressed how you feel about the vaccine/Gen Con being open/states opening... 
All we can do is continue to be vigilant and try to strive to see the end of this. 
 

Posted by technoir swearbear

swearbear wrote:
All I ask is that Gencon just sticks to the guidelines set forth by the state, and nothing more. If masks are not mandated by that point, don't make them mandated. Please don't go above and beyond what is required by the law and/or CDC.  People can go above and beyond themselves should they choose to.  
My buddies and I already have our trip booked for Gencon, so fingers crossed it happens.

Why only the state guidelines? What if the city guidelines are different?! 
I mean... Im sure rural parts of the state will be less dense than downtown Indy... so you may need more restrictions there. 

online
Posted by mikeboozer technoir

technoir wrote:
swearbear wrote:
All I ask is that Gencon just sticks to the guidelines set forth by the state, and nothing more. If masks are not mandated by that point, don't make them mandated. Please don't go above and beyond what is required by the law and/or CDC.  People can go above and beyond themselves should they choose to.  
My buddies and I already have our trip booked for Gencon, so fingers crossed it happens.
Why only the state guidelines? What if the city guidelines are different?! 
I mean... Im sure rural parts of the state will be less dense than downtown Indy... so you may need more restrictions there. 

At the very least we will be complying with all guidelines that are covered in the jurisdiction of the place we are holding the convention. The state, city, and ICC health standards that are in place to run the show. There really isn't a discussion on this point as it is mandatory for the show to happen.

Whatever extra precautions we decide to take above those are the steps we feel we must take to ensure the health and safety of our attendees, partners, and staff.  

Mike

 

Posted by kevinrg

Going round and round about vaccines and being required to attend seems rather pointless since right now all 3 are EUA which, from everything I've read, means they really can't be required and are voluntary.    I guess someone could put that to the test from a legal standpoint and see what happens, but I doubt that will be Gencon.  Seems to me it would be more the airline industry, Disney or a large corporation.

If a person or Gencon really feels strongly that vaccines should be required then really the only avenue is to not attend or not have it in 2021.

Posted by squirecam mikeboozer

mikeboozer wrote:
technoir wrote:
swearbear wrote:
All I ask is that Gencon just sticks to the guidelines set forth by the state, and nothing more. If masks are not mandated by that point, don't make them mandated. Please don't go above and beyond what is required by the law and/or CDC.  People can go above and beyond themselves should they choose to.  
My buddies and I already have our trip booked for Gencon, so fingers crossed it happens.
Why only the state guidelines? What if the city guidelines are different?! 
I mean... Im sure rural parts of the state will be less dense than downtown Indy... so you may need more restrictions there. 

At the very least we will be complying with all guidelines that are covered in the jurisdiction of the place we are holding the convention. The state, city, and ICC health standards that are in place to run the show. There really isn't a discussion on this point as it is mandatory for the show to happen.Whatever extra precautions we decide to take above those are the steps we feel we must take to ensure the health and safety of our attendees, partners, and staff.  
Mike
 
Right. And if people are interested you can view the ICC policies. I posted the link earlier in the thread. These must be complied with and currently require masking, etc.

Gencon doesnt have a choice on compliance with those so people who complain about them should contact the ICC. 

I am glad that Gencon is taking a safety first approach. 

Posted by squirecam kevinrg

kevinrg wrote:
Going round and round about vaccines and being required to attend seems rather pointless since right now all 3 are EUA which, from everything I've read, means they really can't be required and are voluntary.    I guess someone could put that to the test from a legal standpoint and see what happens, but I doubt that will be Gencon.  Seems to me it would be more the airline industry, Disney or a large corporation.
If a person or Gencon really feels strongly that vaccines should be required then really the only avenue is to not attend or not have it in 2021.
I dont see why 25000 to 30000 people cant attend the convention if they are vaccinated. 

As to requiring it, you would agree to the terms and conditions of the badge license. No mask or no vaccination would result in revocation of badge privileges. It's not that difficult.

No one has a "right" to attend the convention, so they have every right to require policies that would allow for a safe business to operate.

This isnt like a grocery store open to anyone. You need a badge to attend. A grocery store probably couldnt require vaccines to enter. But Gencon could.

I had my second shot yesterday. I was told to hang onto the proof as it might be needed in the future for airline flights. So there are already entities that may require a vaccine in order to travel. Gencon wouldn't be unusual.

Posted by matthias9

Right.  As Mike alludes to above, the State, City and ICC guidelines at the time (still almost 5 months out...) will all be followed.  That's table stakes.  But, Gen Con could do more.  Despite what a previous poster says, I think there is at least the possibility that Gen Con could require vaccination.  They asked that question in the survey, after all.  And I 100% agree with squirecam:   The government isn't coming to your house to mandate a shot, but Gen Con is a private business, so...

kevinrg says:  "If a person or Gencon really feels strongly that vaccines should be required then really the only avenue is to not attend or not have it in 2021."    But, you could cut it the other way around.  If Gen Con did choose to require vaccines, you can opt to not attend.  Again, they asked those questions for a reason.  You should assume it is a possibility.  Most likely, some percentage of people will avoid coming if it is not a requirement.  Similarly, some who oppose vaccines won't come if they do require it.  

Posted by kevinrg squirecam

squirecam wrote:
=inheritI dont see why 25000 to 30000 people cant attend the convention if they are vaccinated. As to requiring it, you would agree to the terms and conditions of the badge license. No mask or no vaccination would result in revocation of badge privileges. It's not that difficult. =inheritNo one has a "right" to attend the convention, so they have every right to require policies that would allow for a safe business to operate.  =inheritThis isnt like a grocery store open to anyone. You need a badge to attend. 

I see no reason why a grocery store couldn't require a vaccine to enter.   The badge is irrelevant really since it is a privately owned business and businesses put rules in place to enter their businesses all the time.    A business could charge a fee to enter and issue a badge if they wanted... just from a business standpoint that would be a bad decision.  (Unless all the businesses started doing it... but let's not give them any ideas...)

I was not drawing a pro/anti vaccine stance in any way.    I was speaking solely to the fact that right now, they are EUA vaccines which is a pretty big gray area as to what is legally allowed under a EUA for requirements.

And, if I was a business, how confident would I be in mandating certain policies from a legal standpoint.  (I sure don't have those answers).     If I was unsure or thought it would be an issue, I'd pass until 2022 and let everything wash out from a legal/logistical standpoint as I'd assume other larger entities would have tackled the problem for me.

Granted, it will probably be like the initial mask mandates with businesses in that one does it and just cascades down.   Given that airlines and sporting events haven't had vaccines as a mandate (yet) and they are ticketed 'events' that 1st domino hasn't fallen yet.  

Posted by matthias9

Emergency Use Authorization is just with respect to the legality to bring the drug to market (in the U.S.).  It has zero to do with whether Gen Con, an airline or a school could require it (or anything else).  Gen Con has all kinds of rules in place of their choosing.  For example, Gen Con prohibits the carrying of weapons or weapon replicas, even though you could walk around the streets of Indianapolis with them.  Because, again, Gen Con gets to make its own rules based on what it deems necessary for safety.    If your opinion is that you don't like vaccines, you don't think they are safe, that's up to you.  But Gen Con still gets to do what Gen Con gets to do.  And then you get to decide if you will patronize.  And, make no mistake, some people's opinion will be that your unwillingness to get vaccinated puts them and the convention at greater risk. 

I do not envy Gen Con's spot in having to balance the disparate opinions out there.  

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