Satine Phoenix & Jamison Stone
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Posted by breevee xanathon

xanathon wrote:
dwe113 wrote:
xanathon wrote:
I wish my curiosity didn’t get the better of me. 
I looked up the story and all it does is reinforce my belief that these podcasters and people who seek internet fame are not worth paying attention to and certainly don’t need to be treated like celebrities, especially since they play a game that many of us have played for much longer than they have. 
I find it sad that people are so willing to put people like Phoenix and Jamieson up on celebrity pedestals without first asking whether they should be placed up on the pedestals to begin with. 
Most people who crave attention like that are usually not worth paying attention to. lol I do not care for these people whatsoever but you're literally throwing every person who performs for others into the same group (or, I guess you do say "most")
I'm not stereotyping.  I just don't understand why people like these two get celebrity status by playing Dungeons and Dragons.  I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for 38 years and am a storehouse of useless knowledge regarding the game, but I don't seek celebrity status because of that.  Its just a hobby of mine.  There are no special skills that are needed to play Dungeons and Dragons, no special education, or anything that prevents anyone from playing the game.  So why treat people as celebrities just because they elect to do a podcast or internet show?My comment is based on people's reaction when these pseudo celebrities remind everyone that they are human and capable of making mistakes because they are just like the rest of us, because they are human.
Too many people put them on a pedestal, but once they do something that goes against people's expectations of them, they turn on them and crucify them.  I don't know which is worse the fact that people like Satine and Jamieson get giant ego's because they think themselves as celebrities or the way people turn on them.
I'm not justifying what they did as I think its pathetic that they use what they believe to be their celebrity status to act like arsehats.  Its just another example of cancel culture and rather than give people a chance to make amends for their mistakes everyone wants them removed completely.  

All celebrities, internet or otherwise, are just people. I don't always agree with cancel culture either, but I disagree that this is "just another example" of it. From what I have read, the things these two have done go waaaay beyond making a mistake or two or letting their egos get too big. They were not just unprofessional jerks, but legitimately abusive and this has been a pattern of behavior spanning years. They pose an actual threat to others, and actually have threatened to ruin other creators. So I do think in this case they should be removed completely, and I'm guessing that's why a lot of people feel the same way. 

Posted by xanathon breevee

breevee wrote:
xanathon wrote:
dwe113 wrote:
xanathon wrote:
I wish my curiosity didn’t get the better of me. 
I looked up the story and all it does is reinforce my belief that these podcasters and people who seek internet fame are not worth paying attention to and certainly don’t need to be treated like celebrities, especially since they play a game that many of us have played for much longer than they have. 
I find it sad that people are so willing to put people like Phoenix and Jamieson up on celebrity pedestals without first asking whether they should be placed up on the pedestals to begin with. 
Most people who crave attention like that are usually not worth paying attention to. lol I do not care for these people whatsoever but you're literally throwing every person who performs for others into the same group (or, I guess you do say "most")
I'm not stereotyping.  I just don't understand why people like these two get celebrity status by playing Dungeons and Dragons.  I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for 38 years and am a storehouse of useless knowledge regarding the game, but I don't seek celebrity status because of that.  Its just a hobby of mine.  There are no special skills that are needed to play Dungeons and Dragons, no special education, or anything that prevents anyone from playing the game.  So why treat people as celebrities just because they elect to do a podcast or internet show?My comment is based on people's reaction when these pseudo celebrities remind everyone that they are human and capable of making mistakes because they are just like the rest of us, because they are human.
Too many people put them on a pedestal, but once they do something that goes against people's expectations of them, they turn on them and crucify them.  I don't know which is worse the fact that people like Satine and Jamieson get giant ego's because they think themselves as celebrities or the way people turn on them.
I'm not justifying what they did as I think its pathetic that they use what they believe to be their celebrity status to act like arsehats.  Its just another example of cancel culture and rather than give people a chance to make amends for their mistakes everyone wants them removed completely.  

All celebrities, internet or otherwise, are just people. I don't always agree with cancel culture either, but I disagree that this is "just another example" of it. From what I have read, the things these two have done go waaaay beyond making a mistake or two or letting their egos get too big. They were not just unprofessional jerks, but legitimately abusive and this has been a pattern of behavior spanning years. They pose an actual threat to others, and actually have threatened to ruin other creators. So I do think in this case they should be removed completely, and I'm guessing that's why a lot of people feel the same way. 

I agree with you for the most part.  That is why I said that people put them on a celebrity pedestal without asking themselves if they both deserved to be put onto that pedestal.

I just pointed out that the same people who put them on the pedestal to begin with are the first people to turn on them since they figured out they shouldn't have put on the pedestal.  

Posted by quarex

Just as claiming you are a famous Dungeons & Dragons player does not mean it should be so, neither does invoking the magical phrase "cancel culture" un-awfulize someone

Posted by xanathon quarex

quarex wrote:
Just as claiming you are a famous Dungeons & Dragons player does not mean it should be so, neither does invoking the magical phrase "cancel culture" un-awfulize someone

Agreed, but there are enough people willing to pay $100 to attend a panel with these two just to hear them talk about how great they are. There appears to be quite a few people who at least considered them to be famous and give them celebrity status which is sad in my opinion. 

Posted by lanigironu xanathon

xanathon wrote:
quarex wrote:
Just as claiming you are a famous Dungeons & Dragons player does not mean it should be so, neither does invoking the magical phrase "cancel culture" un-awfulize someone

Agreed, but there are enough people willing to pay $100 to attend a panel with these two just to hear them talk about how great they are. There appears to be quite a few people who at least considered them to be famous and give them celebrity status which is sad in my opinion. 

I think this is similar to the line of logic to people asking like, "why do NBA players get paid millions to play a game?" 
I understand it's your opinion, but if there is a thing large numbers of people are interested in (DnD certainly applies) then there will be an avenue for people to make money off of it. Some people are better DMs than others, some people are exceptional roleplayers, some people are great storytellers and can make compelling campaigns others will like, some people are very good at "normal" hobbies like juggling and can make a career out of it.

Satine's $100 panel wouldn't be any issue if it was as good as any of the other workshops and panels in the Con. People pay a lot to go to good writer symposiums, etc. It just seems in this case the celebrities are narcissistic bullies, and potentially criminals. 

Posted by lehane

Most of the writer panels are free and the ones that do charge are like $10.00 with some maybe getting to $20.00. Charging $100 is pretty out there. 

That said it looks like more people are looking to make money during gencon. The Shadowrun stuff more than doubled from 2019's cost. 

Posted by xanathon lanigironu

lanigironu wrote:
xanathon wrote:
quarex wrote:
Just as claiming you are a famous Dungeons & Dragons player does not mean it should be so, neither does invoking the magical phrase "cancel culture" un-awfulize someone

Agreed, but there are enough people willing to pay $100 to attend a panel with these two just to hear them talk about how great they are. There appears to be quite a few people who at least considered them to be famous and give them celebrity status which is sad in my opinion. 

I think this is similar to the line of logic to people asking like, "why do NBA players get paid millions to play a game?" 
I understand it's your opinion, but if there is a thing large numbers of people are interested in (DnD certainly applies) then there will be an avenue for people to make money off of it. Some people are better DMs than others, some people are exceptional roleplayers, some people are great storytellers and can make compelling campaigns others will like, some people are very good at "normal" hobbies like juggling and can make a career out of it.Satine's $100 panel wouldn't be any issue if it was as good as any of the other workshops and panels in the Con. People pay a lot to go to good writer symposiums, etc. It just seems in this case the celebrities are narcissistic bullies, and potentially criminals. 

I paid $40 for the unveiling of the new Dragonlance novel with Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. 

Both of them are legends in this industry as well as being New York Times Best Selling Authors. 

Their respected resumes vastly surpass those of the two wannabe celebrities we are discussing. 

So how do Satine and Jamieson justify charging $100 for their events and yet two New York Best Selling Authors are only charging $30 which is the cover price of the book?

Seems to me it’s an issue of Satine and Jamieson having inflated egos which is what got them into the mess they are in to begin with. 

Posted by weirdpinkpill

They justify it because they put in time and effort to curate an audience and have risen because of making good career decisions, partnerships and it probably helps having having a good deal of charisma and charm. 

There's a lot more to "I've been doing something for x amount of time" when it comes to doing it in a more celebrated capacity. Time spent in stuff means nothing if you don't have any sort of star quality to go with it. As you can see, the type of folks who shine under the spotlight also can end up being less than humble. Satine probably worked her ass off for her spot (idk I've never followed her career) and some people liked her stuff and wanted to buy it. Turns out she's an asshole. And that sucks for them and for the industry in general because someone who promotes a social activity probably shouldn't be abusive to the people that got them there. Not very classy.

Posted by brumcg xanathon

So how do Satine and Jamieson justify charging $100 for their events

Well, I mean, people are (or were) willing to pay it.  Also, some of their events were $200 and some were free.

I went down a rabbit hole and looked at events over $88 (True Dungeon's price).  There were 24 of them.  Phoenix/Stone had the only "cult of personality" events.  The rest either provided quantity or extras. 

The highest priced event?   "Evening of Gaming in Clayshire Castle" from RPG Travel.  "Join our professional DMs for an exclusive one-shot played in nearby Clayshire Castle. You will board one of our executive tour busses for a short drive to Bowling Green, Indiana for an evening gaming session. A medieval-themed dinner banquet and followed by gaming session before you are returned to downtown Indianapolis. All transportation to and from the castle is provided, along with the meal, an open bar, and exclusive gifts from our partners."  $448.  

Posted by weirdpinkpill

I was very excited for a moment "They have Castles in the USA?" - took a look. Not a particularly impressive castle, but I grew up in Great Britain and so have a bit of a different expectation. I imagine this trip is only this expensive because of the cost to book the bus. 

Posted by lehane weirdpinkpill

weirdpinkpill wrote:
I was very excited for a moment "They have Castles in the USA?" - took a look. Not a particularly impressive castle, but I grew up in Great Britain and so have a bit of a different expectation. I imagine this trip is only this expensive because of the cost to book the bus. 
Castle Gywnn in Tennessee. SE of Nashville.

Posted by qwaserity xanathon

xanathon wrote:So how do Satine and Jamieson justify charging $100 for their events and yet two New York Best Selling Authors are only charging $30 which is the cover price of the book?
Seems to me it’s an issue of Satine and Jamieson having inflated egos which is what got them into the mess they are in to begin with. 
Wait... my events are both free, does that have to do with a deflated ego?

Posted by lanigironu xanathon

xanathon wrote:
lanigironu wrote:
xanathon wrote:
quarex wrote:
Just as claiming you are a famous Dungeons & Dragons player does not mean it should be so, neither does invoking the magical phrase "cancel culture" un-awfulize someone

Agreed, but there are enough people willing to pay $100 to attend a panel with these two just to hear them talk about how great they are. There appears to be quite a few people who at least considered them to be famous and give them celebrity status which is sad in my opinion. 

I think this is similar to the line of logic to people asking like, "why do NBA players get paid millions to play a game?" 
I understand it's your opinion, but if there is a thing large numbers of people are interested in (DnD certainly applies) then there will be an avenue for people to make money off of it. Some people are better DMs than others, some people are exceptional roleplayers, some people are great storytellers and can make compelling campaigns others will like, some people are very good at "normal" hobbies like juggling and can make a career out of it.Satine's $100 panel wouldn't be any issue if it was as good as any of the other workshops and panels in the Con. People pay a lot to go to good writer symposiums, etc. It just seems in this case the celebrities are narcissistic bullies, and potentially criminals. 

I paid $40 for the unveiling of the new Dragonlance novel with Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. Both of them are legends in this industry as well as being New York Times Best Selling Authors. 
Their respected resumes vastly surpass those of the two wannabe celebrities we are discussing. 
So how do Satine and Jamieson justify charging $100 for their events and yet two New York Best Selling Authors are only charging $30 which is the cover price of the book?
Seems to me it’s an issue of Satine and Jamieson having inflated egos which is what got them into the mess they are in to begin with. 

I don't really know how to address than other than you suggest you try to accept that the world at large doesn't adhere to your personal scope of value. 
Margaret Weiss has 17.2k twitter followers. Tracy Hickman has 13.2k
Satine Phoenix has 62.7k. 
Prior to the news of abuse coming out I believe Satine has sold out every single event, free and charged. Hundreds of people were willing to pay $100 or more to hear her speak about DnD and experience in the RPG world. 
Critical Role has almost 2 million youtube subscribers and their videos get millions of views and I doubt any of them are New York Times best sellers. Matt Mercer I bet could do a GenCon session for $400 and sell 100+ tickets. If you did a Family Feud style random poll or random ass people at a crowded mall, more would recognize the DnD/RPG celebrities that you don't acknowledge than the authors you do acknowledge. 

Whether you accept it or not, or accept that your values of a "resume" or what defines a celebrity, those people are far more of celebrities than the authors you mentioned and in most cases have worked very hard to build their careers. The "I've played DnD for 30 years" crowd isn't spending 10 hours a day on DnD and on publicity / social media work. It turns out in this case the celebrities are narcissistic, bullying, and manipulative jerks; but that part doesn't really matter. 

Posted by xanathon lanigironu

lanigironu wrote:
xanathon wrote:
lanigironu wrote:
xanathon wrote:
quarex wrote:
Just as claiming you are a famous Dungeons & Dragons player does not mean it should be so, neither does invoking the magical phrase "cancel culture" un-awfulize someone

Agreed, but there are enough people willing to pay $100 to attend a panel with these two just to hear them talk about how great they are. There appears to be quite a few people who at least considered them to be famous and give them celebrity status which is sad in my opinion. 

I think this is similar to the line of logic to people asking like, "why do NBA players get paid millions to play a game?" 
I understand it's your opinion, but if there is a thing large numbers of people are interested in (DnD certainly applies) then there will be an avenue for people to make money off of it. Some people are better DMs than others, some people are exceptional roleplayers, some people are great storytellers and can make compelling campaigns others will like, some people are very good at "normal" hobbies like juggling and can make a career out of it.Satine's $100 panel wouldn't be any issue if it was as good as any of the other workshops and panels in the Con. People pay a lot to go to good writer symposiums, etc. It just seems in this case the celebrities are narcissistic bullies, and potentially criminals. 

I paid $40 for the unveiling of the new Dragonlance novel with Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. Both of them are legends in this industry as well as being New York Times Best Selling Authors. 
Their respected resumes vastly surpass those of the two wannabe celebrities we are discussing. 
So how do Satine and Jamieson justify charging $100 for their events and yet two New York Best Selling Authors are only charging $30 which is the cover price of the book?
Seems to me it’s an issue of Satine and Jamieson having inflated egos which is what got them into the mess they are in to begin with. 

I don't really know how to address than other than you suggest you try to accept that the world at large doesn't adhere to your personal scope of value. 
Margaret Weiss has 17.2k twitter followers. Tracy Hickman has 13.2k
Satine Phoenix has 62.7k. 
Prior to the news of abuse coming out I believe Satine has sold out every single event, free and charged. Hundreds of people were willing to pay $100 or more to hear her speak about DnD and experience in the RPG world. 
Critical Role has almost 2 million youtube subscribers and their videos get millions of views and I doubt any of them are New York Times best sellers. Matt Mercer I bet could do a GenCon session for $400 and sell 100+ tickets. If you did a Family Feud style random poll or random ass people at a crowded mall, more would recognize the DnD/RPG celebrities that you don't acknowledge than the authors you do acknowledge. Whether you accept it or not, or accept that your values of a "resume" or what defines a celebrity, those people are far more of celebrities than the authors you mentioned and in most cases have worked very hard to build their careers. The "I've played DnD for 30 years" crowd isn't spending 10 hours a day on DnD and on publicity / social media work. It turns out in this case the celebrities are narcissistic, bullying, and manipulative jerks; but that part doesn't really matter. 

Did you seriously equate the difference between two New York Times Best Selling authors and Satine and Jamieson to the number of Twitter followers they have???

if that is what you base success on I feel sorry for you. 

Posted by aaronr

For those who have not been following, a bunch of the stories from people who have been abused or mistreated by S&J have been collected here.

Posted by lehane xanathon

xanathon wrote:

Did you seriously equate the difference between two New York Times Best Selling authors and Satine and Jamieson to the number of Twitter followers they have???if that is what you base success on I feel sorry for you. 


To be honest I am aware that buying fake twitter followers is a thing. Particularly politicians do it. 

I am also aware that there are ways to manipulate the New York Times Best Seller's list, not limited to rich people buying numerous copies of their own book to achieve getting on the list. 

Neither metric is a good barometer for measuring popularity. You can fake both results easily enough if you have enough time and money to burn. 

I personally hadn't heard of Satine Phoenix before seeing the price tag on her events this year so I had to look her up on the internet. I don't personally get the appeal of watching people play D&D (as to opposed just playing it myself), Much like I don't get the appeal of the Food Trucks but the line at the food trucks explains why they are there. 

Posted by xanathon lehane

lehane wrote:
xanathon wrote:Did you seriously equate the difference between two New York Times Best Selling authors and Satine and Jamieson to the number of Twitter followers they have???if that is what you base success on I feel sorry for you. 

To be honest I am aware that buying fake twitter followers is a thing. Particularly politicians do it. I am also aware that there are ways to manipulate the New York Times Best Seller's list, not limited to rich people buying numerous copies of their own book to achieve getting on the list. 
Neither metric is a good barometer for measuring popularity. You can fake both results easily enough if you have enough time and money to burn. 
I personally hadn't heard of Satine Phoenix before seeing the price tag on her events this year so I had to look her up on the internet. I don't personally get the appeal of watching people play D&D (as to opposed just playing it myself), Much like I don't get the appeal of the Food Trucks but the line at the food trucks explains why they are there. 

Regarding watching people play D&D we are in agreement. 

Regarding food trucks it all depends on the food truck. Some are really good, but I don’t like waiting in a long line when it’s really hot. 

I also agree about falsifying a Twitter followers and how the New York Times Best Sellers most can be manipulated. Because of the Fantasy books that Weiss and Hickman write I am less likely to believe that they could manipulate the NY Best Sellers list, but it could happen. 

To me social media is a cancer of society. Why people put so much importance on the number of Twitter followers they have makes me question if they truly understand what is and is not important. I am proud to say that I am not on Twitter and have no desire to join Twitter. 

I just think people really need to think hard before giving someone celebrity status as more often than not they will be disappointed. 

Posted by mikeboozer xanathon
#43

[This post has been removed]

Posted by lehane xanathon

xanathon wrote:
lehane wrote:
xanathon wrote:Did you seriously equate the difference between two New York Times Best Selling authors and Satine and Jamieson to the number of Twitter followers they have???if that is what you base success on I feel sorry for you. 

To be honest I am aware that buying fake twitter followers is a thing. Particularly politicians do it. I am also aware that there are ways to manipulate the New York Times Best Seller's list, not limited to rich people buying numerous copies of their own book to achieve getting on the list. 
Neither metric is a good barometer for measuring popularity. You can fake both results easily enough if you have enough time and money to burn. 
I personally hadn't heard of Satine Phoenix before seeing the price tag on her events this year so I had to look her up on the internet. I don't personally get the appeal of watching people play D&D (as to opposed just playing it myself), Much like I don't get the appeal of the Food Trucks but the line at the food trucks explains why they are there. 

Regarding watching people play D&D we are in agreement. Regarding food trucks it all depends on the food truck. Some are really good, but I don’t like waiting in a long line when it’s really hot. 
I also agree about falsifying a Twitter followers and how the New York Times Best Sellers most can be manipulated. Because of the Fantasy books that Weiss and Hickman write I am less likely to believe that they could manipulate the NY Best Sellers list, but it could happen. 
To me social media is a cancer of society. Why people put so much importance on the number of Twitter followers they have makes me question if they truly understand what is and is not important. I am proud to say that I am not on Twitter and have no desire to join Twitter. 
I just think people really need to think hard before giving someone celebrity status as more often than not they will be disappointed. 
I have started separating Actors/Actresses from the characters they play. I may really like a particular character but not care for the person playing them at all. 

I do the same thing for music and art and separating them from the given artists. 

Best example would be the fact I still love Buffy the Vampire Slayer regardless of how I feel about Joss Whedon or any of the Actors/Actresses that played the characters.

Posted by kevinrg

More general comments.  Not directed at any one person.   I never get the eye rolling of where people spend their money within a particular hobby by people within the hobby.  "Spend $100 on an event at Gencon? Pfft.. Hey, check this out, I spent $2000 at the auction hall for this half eaten Gary Gygax twinkie that he signed".       

Definitely not unique to gaming, I do a bunch of different hobbies and see this across the board.   The psychology of it all is just bizarre to me.   I guess people just have this necessity to believe their choices are superior to someone else.  

Having said that, I didn't realize that there were some events that were that much at Gencon.    If you can run an event and get that much for it, good for you.

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