Regarding the coronavirus survey, policies need to have no exceptions or they are useless.
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Posted by monkeyknifefight squirecam

squirecam wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
squirecam wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
i dont believe This could be done in time for gen con. I also don’t know how we could require people to spend 200 more dollars on an item they would otherwise never use. Effective, yes. Feasible, I don’t not think so.
Everyones got the latest lphone that can speed up the process, but they wont get a digital passport? I disagree.Alot of attendees have to fly to Gencon. It would be usable and feasible. 

Leaving off the whole strawman iPhone thing, you have to understand that the passport would be a deal breaker from some folks.  Personally I would get the passport (but I also plant to travel elsewhere over the next few years), but I recognize that it's not an easy thing to just add a couple of hundred more bucks onto the price tag for people.  It's a legitimate concern.
Perhaps, and this is just me, but perhaps people shouldn't be traveling during a pandemic if the extra cost is out of their price range.Gencon is a great time. But there are far more important things people need to do. And the top of that list should be their own health and safety. And then the health and safety of the other people they encounter.
Gencon may be only for those willing and able to comply with their restrictions. And that's ok. Gencon is a business and they need to make money. If people wont come until it's safe, and these restrictions make it safe enough that gencon can happen, then great.
If GenCon happens, the pandemic will pretty much be over.

Posted by monkeyknifefight squirecam

squirecam wrote:
the_electron wrote:
I think it all boils down to everyone has a personal choice in balancing risks. Is it worth the risk to attend a convention for socializing/entertainment or is the risk of attending more than the benefit? That is true just as much today as it was 3 years ago. There are risks in everyday life, but we get so used to them we forget them. There is risk just driving or flying to Gencon. There is also risk taken by staying home (fires, tornados, meteors are all risks of staying in a building). From a purely logical perspective, I think it only makes sense to have Gencon this year, do what they can to accommodate safety (provide masks, sanitizing stations, gloves, request everyone get vaccinated), and let everyone decide if they are comfortable attending. As was mentioned already, there should be enough vaccines available for anyone who wants one in the US by June which allows time for a follow up dose as needed. Other countries are vaccinating as well. That means next year should have about the same amount of risk as this year, so if they cancel this year, it is not setting a good precedent.
There will be PLENTY of people who are vaccinated and willing to attend Gencon this year, so there is a good business case to hold the convention. There is a good social case to hold it. There is a case against having it for health concerns, but I would argue it will be that that way for the foreseeable future (as in in the next 10 years) and there has always been a cause for health concern even 5 years ago so this isn't that new. I wonder if this year will have even less con crud because people will be hyper aware of sanitation than in years previous. I'm not even sure they will need a mask mandate for the convention, if they want to require vaccinations to attend, we'll be in a safer position that going to the grocery store.
Anyway, to sum up: the risk posed by COVID-19 will be greatly reduced this year and will be as good as it'll be until we start genetically engineering it out of the race (aka, it's here to stay unfortunately) and everyone has a choice on whether they want to attend - so they should have the convention, have protection available to those who want it, encourage or require vaccines, and let it go on.
if vaccines are not required then there would be limits to attendance as unvaccinated people would require the social distancing. Also logistically you'd have vaccinated people who can sit close to a board but other unvaccinated people who have to sit 6 feet away from the board and the others. It's a problem.The logical and financial plan would be to require vaccines. That allows for the largest attendance and the fewest costs. Gencon is a business after all.
I would not rely on "encouragement" when health and safety is concerned. 
I don't think this is necessarily true. Most likely sometime during summer restrictions will be entirely lifted in many parts of the country, because anyone who wants a vaccine will be able to get one. At that point GenCon wouldn't need to have limits on attendance or require vaccines.

Posted by squirecam monkeyknifefight

monkeyknifefight wrote:
squirecam wrote:
the_electron wrote:
I think it all boils down to everyone has a personal choice in balancing risks. 
if vaccines are not required then there would be limits to attendance as unvaccinated people would require the social distancing. Also logistically you'd have vaccinated people who can sit close to a board but other unvaccinated people who have to sit 6 feet away from the board and the others. It's a problem.The logical and financial plan would be to require vaccines. That allows for the largest attendance and the fewest costs. Gencon is a business after all.
I would not rely on "encouragement" when health and safety is concerned. 
I don't think this is necessarily true. Most likely sometime during summer restrictions will be entirely lifted in many parts of the country, because anyone who wants a vaccine will be able to get one. At that point GenCon wouldn't need to have limits on attendance or require vaccines.
This is unlikely. At present, you have 30-40% of people who say in polls that they will not get a vaccine. If that number is true, then you cannot allow the different populations to mix. 

The unvaccinated people will be able to spread the disease. They will need masks and social distancing.

The vaccinated people dont want to have either. You cant have a convention where half have no restrictions and half must be distanced. Which means it must all be distanced. Which means limits and masks and temperature checks. Which is clearly less profitable. 

As long as 30% of the population wont get a vaccine there cannot be an unrestricted convention, unless the convention were limited only to vaccinated people. 

The science is simple. The more it spreads the greater the chance for a mutation. The greater the chance for a mutation, the greater the chance the mutation limits or eliminates the effectiveness of the vaccine. And then we are back to where we started. No one wants that outcome.

 

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Posted by chaoticneutral262

I don't think Gen Con needs to babysit people.  Thus far, all three vaccines have provided approximately 100% protection against hospitalization and death from Covid.  By the end of May it will available free of charge for any eligible person who wants it.  Regardless, a sizable minority of the population will never get it for one reason or another.

At some point, our collective responsibility to protect each other needs to give way to personal responsibility to protect ourselves.

Posted by squirecam chaoticneutral262

chaoticneutral262 wrote:
I don't think Gen Con needs to babysit people.  Thus far, all three vaccines have provided approximately 100% protection against hospitalization and death from Covid.  By the end of May it will available free of charge for any eligible person who wants it.  Regardless, a sizable minority of the population will never get it for one reason or another.
At some point, our collective responsibility to protect each other needs to give way to personal responsibility to protect ourselves.
That wont fly as the virus can mutate and eliminate the vaccine protection, which is not 100%. Certainly isnt proven. Best they've said is in the 85 to 95 range.

some people wont get a vaccine. They have to live with that choice. But gencon is a business. They are going to do what is safest but also gets them the most money. They have reiterated it here several times. It wont be left up to individuals to decide. There will be health policies people will be required to comply with. 

Or simply dont go.

Posted by officerdg

Okay keep in mind now this is only my 2 cents!  Somebody mentioned providing a badge mark of some sort for the vaccinated people.   I love this idea, I have a severely compromised immune system.  Crohns and cancer both, lucky me.  Anyway I would absolutely love to be able to look at someone else and notice a very brightly-colored sticker stuck to their badge that said something like "I've been vaccinated" or something like that.  You can't require the vaccine just to attend Gen Con BUT I do believe masks MUST be mandated.  I'm sure that Gen Con management as well as ICC management can come together and make some sort of plan for mandated mask wearing.  NO EXCEPTIONS NO EXCUSES without some sort of medical verification and those who provide the appropriate medical verification that they can't wear a mask.  Those people will receive a different brightly-colored sticker to apply to there badge.  I know legally you can't make someone disclose their medical issues, all the letters need to say on the Dr's letter head is that for medical reasons you can't.   ALSO, make sure when registering that everyone knows that the people that provide such a letter are going to be spot checked by calling the Dr listed on the letter head.  If the letter turns out to be fraudulent then you will be banned from the 2021 convention.  Yes that's harsh, but people need to know that they better be honest or loose a lot of money and fun.  I know you can't make a very small child wear a mask.  Up to say 8 or whatever should be exempt.  I'm sure I pissed someone off.  Don't be an ass about it just try not being arrogant and talk it out.  Hell I might even be willing to pay for all the stickers!

Posted by squirecam officerdg

officerdg wrote:
Okay keep in mind now this is only my 2 cents!  Somebody mentioned providing a badge mark of some sort for the vaccinated people.   I love this idea, I have a severely compromised immune system.  Crohns and cancer both, lucky me.  Anyway I would absolutely love to be able to look at someone else and notice a very brightly-colored sticker stuck to their badge that said something like "I've been vaccinated" or something like that.  You can't require the vaccine just to attend Gen Con BUT I do believe masks MUST be mandated.  I'm sure that Gen Con management as well as ICC management can come together and make some sort of plan for mandated mask wearing.  NO EXCEPTIONS NO EXCUSES without some sort of medical verification and those who provide the appropriate medical verification that they can't wear a mask.  Those people will receive a different brightly-colored sticker to apply to there badge.  I know legally you can't make someone disclose their medical issues, all the letters need to say on the Dr's letter head is that for medical reasons you can't.   ALSO, make sure when registering that everyone knows that the people that provide such a letter are going to be spot checked by calling the Dr listed on the letter head.  If the letter turns out to be fraudulent then you will be banned from the 2021 convention.  Yes that's harsh, but people need to know that they better be honest or loose a lot of money and fun.  I know you can't make a very small child wear a mask.  Up to say 8 or whatever should be exempt.  I'm sure I pissed someone off.  Don't be an ass about it just try not being arrogant and talk it out.  Hell I might even be willing to pay for all the stickers!
Gencon is unable to take the time to contact every "doctor" who says their patient cant wear a mask. So people who dont want to comply will try it and see if they can get away with it.

Which is why the rules should be uniform. If people cannot wear a mask, then this Gencon is probably not for them. They should put their own health first after all.

Sorry about your own health issues. I wish you well.

Posted by jimdigris

All of this may be moot at this point.  The major gaming companies need months to prepare for this.  Many of them will not attend if they cannot get their people vaccinated.  Looking at the kinds of preparations involved, their costs, the reduced size of the audience, and whether they will have enough volunteers or employees who can safely attend, many may make the choice not to attend.  Many of the vendors in the dealer's hall may not be there either for safety reasons.  There may not be enough exhibitors attending to justify the convention.

Posted by kidlidar

don't forget the GM's need time to prepare.  I usually run 2 to 3 events each con (a 40person LARP and a tabletop RPG)  My time is very limited so I have to start working on my events usually in January and we sometimes are still putting props together the night before we leave.  I know that my contribution is small compared to say, Pazio, but I hope GenCon staff take this into account.  I can't be the only one.

Posted by kar8a

I agree on Gencon needing to make a call by Easter.  If we're doing this onsite in August, or even online that month, folks will need time to prepare and make plans.  Certainty should be had one way or another by that holiday, with everything then having smaller windows to make happen:).

I mean, my spouse is playtesting his completely original RPG runs this month, but he's an optimist:).  I doubt others will be as ready to go once a call is made if it goes too late.
 

Posted by kd8esu

I see a lot of misrepresentation of the vaccine and what it does to justify a mandatory vaccine to attend:
The only thing the current ones do is prevent the symptoms; they don't prevent transmission and they don't prevent you from getting COVID-19.

I want to add that those who have antibodies to COVID-19 because they previously had it should be grouped in with any that would have been vaccinated; they are less likely to transmit it to others and less like to have symptoms, and that assumes they are the small minority that get sick from it twice.

Posted by fethbone matthias9

matthias9 wrote:
jimdigris wrote:
That's what I see as being the deal breaker.  Someone is going to disregard the rules, and when asked to follow them will become belligerent. That could end up as a lawsuit.

I think a lot of these things come down to whether you choose to see the glass as half-full or half-empty.  You earlier posted that it was bad that only 22% of the public is vaccinated.  Personally, I think that's good news -- headed in the right direction.   Similarly, I think you are overly pessimistic about rules compliance.I manage a public building that has had literally tens of thousands of people through the doors since the pandemic started -- including more then 26,000 just to vote (polling location -- so it was people of all political stripes).  In all that time, only 1 person has refused to wear a mask.  That person told staff he wouldn't do it.  We had a supervisor repeatedly offer a mask and insist that he will have to wear it or leave.  Ultimately, after some back and forth, he agreed to wear it, but told us how 'dumb' it was.  My point is that I just don't buy that non-compliance is a big problem. People know what they have to do to go to Target, Home Depot or wherever.  They may or may not like it, but they know what the deal is when they go there.    
If you look on Youtube, you can find a few people getting arrested, so anything can happen.   But, these events are extremely rare.  Again, my building had tens of thousands of people and zero times we have had to call the police.  I have no idea what the lawsuit is about that you are imagining coming out of this. 
TLDR:
1)  We don't even know what the rules would be yet
2)  Virtually everyone WILL follow the rules (even if they don't like them) just like they do everywhere else right now
3)  Gen Con would have a plan in place for how to respond if someone doesn't follow the rules
The glass is half full.  And there are four lights.

Despite what people may tell their friends, family, and pollsters, people are getting out there and traveling for leisure more and more. The increase of young people, families, and retirement-age folk in the airport has been steadily going up. If GenCon is on, people will come.

Besides a break in March/April 2020, I have been flying 1-2 times a months for work during the rest of 2020 and into 2021. Despite what the news would like to have us think, I have yet to see a "situation" in the airport or on the airplane regarding policy/mask compliance that escalated beyond someone being gently reminded and then complying. Peer pressure works wonders. All that is to say that I agree that the rate of compliance with easy-to-follow policies such as masking -should those policies be put in place- will likely be higher than people may think. 

That being said, even with a protocol to address non-compliance, will full compliance be 100% at all times and will there be Gencon/security staff available to run up and ring the shame-bell at a non-compliant person as soon as you see them? Of course not; only casinos have the money and infrastructure to monitor large groups like that. 

Whatever people think regarding a vaccination requirement, I do not believe GenCon has the resources to implement such a policy beyond a questionnaire or waiver. I have traveled to several states that require proof of a recent negative Covid19 test or proof of recovered infection to enter the state without quarantining. I have been compliant in having the proper documentation, but the only time I was asked to produce that documentation was a request to email it to someone at a health department; however, failure to do this would not have prevented me from leaving the airport or going about my business. States can draw on public dollars and federal aid, and they have had a year to get their existing policies where they are- if they don't have the resources for in-depth monitoring, document collection, and follow up, I don't think it's likely that GenCon does.

 

Posted by chaos62417 squirecam

[This post has been removed]

online
Posted by mikeboozer

chaos62417 we are not going down the road of back and forth arguments about who is right or who is wrong, and we are certainly not going to start calling people foolish.

You're one and only warning.

Let's keep it civil folks.

Mike

Posted by chaos62417 mikeboozer

[This post has been removed]

Posted by chaos62417 squirecam

squirecam wrote:
monkeyknifefight wrote:
squirecam wrote:
the_electron wrote:
I think it all boils down to everyone has a personal choice in balancing risks. 
if vaccines are not required then there would be limits to attendance as unvaccinated people would require the social distancing. Also logistically you'd have vaccinated people who can sit close to a board but other unvaccinated people who have to sit 6 feet away from the board and the others. It's a problem.The logical and financial plan would be to require vaccines. That allows for the largest attendance and the fewest costs. Gencon is a business after all.
I would not rely on "encouragement" when health and safety is concerned. 
I don't think this is necessarily true. Most likely sometime during summer restrictions will be entirely lifted in many parts of the country, because anyone who wants a vaccine will be able to get one. At that point GenCon wouldn't need to have limits on attendance or require vaccines.
This is unlikely. At present, you have 30-40% of people who say in polls that they will not get a vaccine. If that number is true, then you cannot allow the different populations to mix. The unvaccinated people will be able to spread the disease. They will need masks and social distancing.
The vaccinated people dont want to have either. You cant have a convention where half have no restrictions and half must be distanced. Which means it must all be distanced. Which means limits and masks and temperature checks. Which is clearly less profitable. 
As long as 30% of the population wont get a vaccine there cannot be an unrestricted convention, unless the convention were limited only to vaccinated people. 
The science is simple. The more it spreads the greater the chance for a mutation. The greater the chance for a mutation, the greater the chance the mutation limits or eliminates the effectiveness of the vaccine. And then we are back to where we started. No one wants that outcome.
 
So this post, riddled with absolutes and inaccuracy is fine however my response which was based on logic and actual things happening is not? I do not follow. By deleting one side of the argument you are actually perpetuating the argument of who is right and wrong, IE you are picking sides. 

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Posted by mikeboozer chaos62417

chaos62417 wrote:
squirecam wrote:
monkeyknifefight wrote:
squirecam wrote:
the_electron wrote:
I think it all boils down to everyone has a personal choice in balancing risks. 
if vaccines are not required then there would be limits to attendance as unvaccinated people would require the social distancing. Also logistically you'd have vaccinated people who can sit close to a board but other unvaccinated people who have to sit 6 feet away from the board and the others. It's a problem.The logical and financial plan would be to require vaccines. That allows for the largest attendance and the fewest costs. Gencon is a business after all.
I would not rely on "encouragement" when health and safety is concerned. 
I don't think this is necessarily true. Most likely sometime during summer restrictions will be entirely lifted in many parts of the country, because anyone who wants a vaccine will be able to get one. At that point GenCon wouldn't need to have limits on attendance or require vaccines.
This is unlikely. At present, you have 30-40% of people who say in polls that they will not get a vaccine. If that number is true, then you cannot allow the different populations to mix. The unvaccinated people will be able to spread the disease. They will need masks and social distancing.
The vaccinated people dont want to have either. You cant have a convention where half have no restrictions and half must be distanced. Which means it must all be distanced. Which means limits and masks and temperature checks. Which is clearly less profitable. 
As long as 30% of the population wont get a vaccine there cannot be an unrestricted convention, unless the convention were limited only to vaccinated people. 
The science is simple. The more it spreads the greater the chance for a mutation. The greater the chance for a mutation, the greater the chance the mutation limits or eliminates the effectiveness of the vaccine. And then we are back to where we started. No one wants that outcome.
So this post, riddled with absolutes and inaccuracy is fine however my response which was based on logic and actual things happening is not? I do not follow. By deleting one side of the argument you are actually perpetuating the argument of who is right and wrong, IE you are picking sides. 

 chaos62417 it has nothing to do with peoples opinions one way or the other. As you can see there have been many on both sides that have been posted.

You post was directed at one person and most certainly did call them foolish for their beliefs. It is not acceptable on these boards.

We are not going to continue discussing your post here.

Mike

Posted by chaos62417

Please contact [email protected] to discuss.

Mike

 

Posted by chaos62417

Do those messages go to you or an impartial party?

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Posted by mikeboozer chaos62417

chaos62417 wrote:
Do those messages go to you or an impartial party?

They go to me as I'm the head of Customer Service. However, I work with other monitors on this forum. We are in agreement with the steps taken. You're post was inflammatory and was removed. 

Mike

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