new health update:
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Posted by squirecam samlamiam
#501

samlamiam wrote:
kevinrg wrote:
squirecam wrote:
=inheritThis is not unusual. In the past, plenty of stadiums or other events required masks while the surrounding businesses did not.

In the past.More and more venues that are competing for entertainment dollars are moving away from mask requirements so, to say masks are the norm isn't correct.   2021?  Yep.   2022, Nope.
I think everyone acknowledges that it is Gencon's party and they can do what they want.   Personally I think they should have just drawn a line in the sand back in January and said masks/vax in 2022 because  I don't think there was ever a moment that they thought of dropping them.   
I know there is a subset that would be fine with Gencon requiring masks from now until the end of time.   Not sure that is a viable business plan though.   As more and more businesses move away from requirements, at some point with masks required, Gencon would be the outlier and people that don't want to deal with masks any more will spend their entertainment dollars elsewhere.   And that group won't be just the extreme 2020 anti-maskers because there seems to be a number of 2020/2021 pro-maskers that wish GC would move on.   If that is the path GC takes in the future, hey.. more power to them.  

Very well said.  Best bits, with my additions:

  • Everyone acknowledges that it is Gencon's party and they can do what they want.
  • There is a subset that would be fine with Gencon requiring masks from now until the end of time.
  • At some point masks-required events are an outlier and unattractive to the general population.
  • The people pushing against the mask requirement this year aren't the extreme anti-maskers of 2020.  The extremists didn't attend last year and probably didn't plan to attend this year either.  We're just regular people who got vaccinated and moved on with our lives.  Outside of hospitals, we don't experience mandatory masking anywhere (and haven't for some time), so it strikes us as unusual, unnecessary, and burdensome.  (FWIW, I also have not encountered a vaccine mandate anywhere for close to a year, but as a vaccinated & boosted person a vax mandate is not something that ruffles my feathers.) 

This varies depending on location. Masks were required in NV up until a few months ago. Raiders games required a vaccine. So what was typical for some is not the experience everyone has had.

Posted by mikeboozer
#502

To clarify a bit...

We do not just look to the CDC for guidance. We have stated that we are looking at a many factors and listed some of them throughout our updates.
Our aim is to make this as safe an environment as we can for everyone. 
To be even clearer that is not just the attendees. There are a lot more factors that we must manage to have we would regard as a safe and successful convention.

Mike

Posted by sovietprince
#503

The CDC is the ppl with the science should they not be the factor that determines what safe or not? How much does this virus have to drop then it already has to drop it? There is a point were people need to make up there own minds if they want to risk going and not enforce the ones willing to risk to follow there rules 

Posted by sovietprince
#504

To be clear I am for precsution snd mandates when appropriate but with death and hospitalization going down it might not be nessary for a mandate.

Also from what I heard the m5 mask is the only one they reccomend anyway and the normal mask effectiveness dropped by a lot anyway.

Posted by jillt
#505

[This post has been removed]

Posted by donaldbain sovietprince
#506

sovietprince wrote:
To be clear I am for precsution snd mandates when appropriate but with death and hospitalization going down it might not be nessary for a mandate.
In Indy infections are up 94%, hospitalized +21%, ICU +25%, and deaths 67%.  Actual numbers are low for now but the numbers have been trending up in the past month.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/indiana-covid-cases.html

Posted by mikeboozer sovietprince
#507

sovietprince wrote:
The CDC is the ppl with the science should they not be the factor that determines what safe or not? How much does this virus have to drop then it already has to drop it? There is a point were people need to make up there own minds if they want to risk going and not enforce the ones willing to risk to follow there rules 

We have other considerations as well is my point.

Mike

Posted by dpuck1998 mikeboozer
#508

mikeboozer wrote:
To clarify a bit...
We do not just look to the CDC for guidance. We have stated that we are looking at a many factors and listed some of them throughout our updates.
Our aim is to make this as safe an environment as we can for everyone. 
To be even clearer that is not just the attendees. There are a lot more factors that we must manage to have we would regard as a safe and successful convention.
Mike

So other than the CDC, where else do you seek guidance? Honest question.

Posted by papabees donaldbain
#509

donaldbain wrote:
sovietprince wrote:
To be clear I am for precsution snd mandates when appropriate but with death and hospitalization going down it might not be nessary for a mandate.
In Indy infections are up 94%, hospitalized +21%, ICU +25%, and deaths 67%.  Actual numbers are low for now but the numbers have been trending up in the past month.https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/indiana-covid-cases.html
These numbers are accurate but somewhat misleading, yes they look extreme but a large reason why are that cases dropped to almost nil relatively speaking. According to the CDCs own site, as of yesterday Marion County was still in the green. If one were to track cold/flu at times you could post statistics that at a glance would seem significant. I don't mean to dismiss the above as what I think will happen is we will see a peak and then a drop again before August due to another new variant, however here is the rub, at this point anyone who is particularly vulnerable to COVID (after the mutations) is also vulnerable to the flu, colds, etc. And that sucks. It's a crummy way to have to live. As stated before, with Vaccines, Natural antibodies, anti virals, and the virus just being less potent, the statistical difference that a cloth mask makes is essentially zero (that is directly from the CDC. N95 has better results I can PM the CDC page if you want).   

Here is what confuses me (legitimately, not trolling) a vocal minority makes the argument that we need to make this as "safe" as possible. In reality, a gathering of 50k people will never be safe for someone in that life situation. It will never be free from virus or bacteria. COVID is here to stay. Barring a significant outbreak in August, Gencon will likely be as safe this year as any in the next ten. So if one has family or loved ones that they are worried about due to catching something and bringing it home, why is that person coming to a Con like this at all. It's a very real possibility that you will catch COVID due to it spreading the way it does, and yet you still choose to come. I don't understand why you don't just avoid it altogether. If there are "other" factors to consider, those people are being done a disservice if your selling the idea that wearing a mask makes them safe.

Understand I'm not saying I don't want those individuals to attend just that there are other social impacts that need to be accounted for when weighing the statistical differences that any masking actually makes. We are social creatures and covering our faces, our expressions of joy, laughter, sadness, gratitude, has a very real impact on our psyche that needs to be measured against quantifiable statistical differences of mask wearing. I'd wager all of us game because of that social aspect. Taking an element of it away is no light thing to consider. (lots of interesting studies about impact on school kids)

Were I Gencon, I would not have lifted any sort of mandate yet either. I think most attendees frustration comes from phrases like "as well as consulting our own experts" because it feels like a 180 from previous policies. And many feel that the trend lends itself to expect the CDC to continue to relax their restrictions. While not a guarantee it certainly feels like a reasonable gamble. Gencon's messaging have felt much less definative. Their right as a business? Absolutely. However, it's also fair as a paying consumer to express dissatisfaction (respectfully) with a given policy if it detracts from the enjoyment that we are paying for or is keeping us from buying a ticket altogether.  
  

Posted by cinnibar papabees
#510


Internet communication has been around a long time.  Haven't you seen the kids each staring and typing into their phone with those around them?  They just learned social cues that are different than the old people like you and me. ;)

Posted by papabees cinnibar
#511

cinnibar wrote:
Internet communication has been around a long time.  Haven't you seen the kids each staring and typing into their phone with those around them?  They just learned social cues that are different than the old people like you and me. ;)
​​​​​​Maybe I'm being obtuse (entirely possible), but if you refer to zoom type meetings or classes that is not what I meant. I mean literal face to face relationships with faces covered. Psychologists are citing depression and anxiety being up and less recognition of the individual. It's a bit fascinating but when we only see people's eyes we lose empathy for them. It also seems to lessen dopamine which are our happy chemicals. Hard to determine the long term impact but in the short term it's been pretty crummy.

Posted by cinnibar
#512

No, you're missing how the current generation has chosen to communicate with each other.

Posted by ndgeekboy cinnibar
#513

cinnibar wrote:No, you're missing how the current generation has chosen to communicate with each other.

Sorry for straying off-topic here, but is this really how the current generation has "chosen" to communicate? Or is it the norm that they're learning from the people around them, the older generation that's actually chosen to communicate this way, those people who are supposed to be setting the example for them?

Posted by joho
#514

I’m glad the mask requirement is in place as hope it stands. Thankfully I can express all the eye rolling I need in a mask when people start making it seem like they are an insurmountable obstacle to communication. Gotta be careful I don’t hurt my self eye rolling to the ‘kids these days’ observations.

Posted by mnemosyn
#515

The masks are just virtue signaling at this point. Gen Con simply playing politics and driving away fans. 

Posted by kevinrg mnemosyn
#516

mnemosyn wrote:
The masks are just virtue signaling at this point. Gen Con simply playing politics and driving away fans. 

They haven't driven away enough fans to not make it financially worthwhile since there are enough people that either want this or will just deal with it.   If there was that big of a financial impact, they would have reversed course or massaged the rules to entice more to come.     They are probably juggling the balls of making sure the rules in place have enough people coming to make it financially viable, have enough large paying vendors come and then GC staffs own personal concerns.    If that is the case, then really not a viable long term strategic goal for growth. As I mentioned before, the 'will deal with it' crowd will shrink the further out from 2020 you get.

Posted by brumcg
#517

Gen Con knew that they were going to lose attendees no matter what the policy is. 

I suspect that folks in this thread will be surprised at how many people are like me.  I prioritized going to Gen Con and am okay with whatever the policy is.

Based on Origins' reversal and David Hoppe's statements, I do think that the exhibitors and volunteers are the keys to the decision.  In that case, I'd rather wear a mask and have a full exhibit hall and all of the volunteers.

Posted by rfsullivan
#518

How much of the "other factors" is vendors getting antsy about having their staff hotboxing an entire convention's worth of unmasked breath in the dealer hall for an entire long weekend? Given the prospect of a fatality is no longer hypothetical after PAX, I could see them pushing hard for enhanced measures.

Posted by cinnibar ndgeekboy
#519

ndgeekboy wrote:
cinnibar wrote:No, you're missing how the current generation has chosen to communicate with each other.

Sorry for straying off-topic here, but is this really how the current generation has "chosen" to communicate? Or is it the norm that they're learning from the people around them, the older generation that's actually chosen to communicate this way, those people who are supposed to be setting the example for them?

This is what they've chosen if my niece is any example. My sister was all worried as her daughter would be constantly tapping rather than being 'out and about as we used to'.  Turns out my niece and her entire school apparently was doing just fine despite the parents' bemoaning how times change.  As always. :D

Posted by roderick cinnibar
#520

cinnibar wrote:
ndgeekboy wrote:
cinnibar wrote:No, you're missing how the current generation has chosen to communicate with each other.

Sorry for straying off-topic here

...


Guys, you are straying off-point. This is the Health Update thread.  

If you want to talk about kids not doing things the way you did, you might start up a new subject. Or take it somewhere else, since it has little to nothing to do with Gen Con. 

Roderick Robertson
Forum Coordinator 
Gen Con, LLC. 

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