Event meant specifically for bullying ( Locked)
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Posted by raidkillsbugsded
#26

This isn't even usually my (or my wife's) kind of event to attend, but now we almost want to go just to see what this fuss is all about...

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Posted by kysp
#27

This is really bad.

Fan fiction (while sometimes celebrated as a guilty pleasure and a festival of bad writing by people in the community, who have that right) is somebody's creation. It's sad and wrong to discourage people from making things, and by no huge coincidence, those people are typically female.

I don't like Gen Con's reasons why this is OK.

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Posted by jcirillo1971 kysp
#28

kysp wrote:
This is really bad.
Fan fiction (while sometimes celebrated as a guilty pleasure and a festival of bad writing by people in the community, who have that right) is somebody's creation. It's sad and wrong to discourage people from making things, and by no huge coincidence, those people are typically female.
I don't like Gen Con's reasons why this is OK.

And most REAL authors don't approve of the intellectual theft of their characters being used in fan faction...but that is a different argument entirely which has nothing to do with GenCon.

At the end of the day, these type of events have been going on for years at gaming and literary cons without any backlash, hate, or spite. But now that we live in a new reality of sad puppies, rabid puppies, gamergaters, sjws, safe zones, etc...people will now make an issue out of everything.

Please let GenCon be GenCon.

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Posted by bithlord
#29

Personally, I don't think this inherently qualifies as "bullying", especially if it is kept anonymous and not directed at anyone who is present.  It is certainly in bad taste (IMO), but then so are any number of other events at GenCon (Hentai dubbing, burlesque shows) and I don't request that they be removed because I recognize that my tastes are not universal.

I think the biggest thing that bothers me is that people are somehow turning this into a sexism issue.  I haven't seen any indication, at all, that the sex of the author is considered or even factored into this event.  Claiming it's sexism is a pure attempt at claiming victimhood, it is an active attempt to be a victim.

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Posted by wjmacguffin
#30

Bad movie nights with Troll 2 and The Room are a staple. I've never heard anyone proclaim such gatherings as bullying or sad, even though the point is to laugh at the creation, not laugh along with it. 

We laugh at William Shatner and Kirsten Stewart for bad acting. No one calls us out for bullying them even though we are mocking actual living people.  

We openly decry the Twilight books or the Left Behind series despite millions of people loving them. 

Troll 2, William Shatner, and Twilight are not full of racist, misogynist, hateful crud. They are simply not good. Lots of us gamers mock all three. We might love them at the same time, but we still laugh at them. 

I'm not sure how this bad fanfic event is much different. As I said above, if the panelists start naming names and bullying the creators themselves, that's not good. But until they do that, I don't want GenCon censoring my events. I can do that all by myself. 

 

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Posted by raidkillsbugsded
#31

After reading through these posts once again and thinking about it more:

So can any scathing, acidic review of a movie, book, album, art be considered bullying?    I'm not saying that I agree with 'tearing apart' or ridiculing someone's work/creation; if you don't like it, don't watch it read it, look at it, but it is fairly standard fare that when you make art (of whatever sort) and then put it out for public display/consumption, it may be lambasted by those who don't like it (for whatever reason). 

George Lucas has feelings, too, you know.

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Posted by bithlord raidkillsbugsded
#32

raidkillsbugsded wrote:George Lucas has feelings, too, you know.

It's ok, George Lucas can cuddle up in his billions of dollars in cash for comfort :).

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Posted by a0ashle
#33

I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

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Posted by wjmacguffin a0ashle
#34

a0ashle wrote:
I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

MST3K rarely used major motion pictures from big studios. Instead, they focused on small studios and independent productions. (RiffTraxx is another story.) And if this mockery is really bullying and all that, then professional vs. amateur shouldn't matter. 

I see your point about the track meet, though. That's why I'm not interested in this event. I'm not above laughing at horrible media (I do that with OKCupid profiles from time to time), but I wouldn't want to do something specifically to make people feel bad. I'm just not sure I want GenCon deciding that for me. 

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Posted by a0ashle wjmacguffin
#35

wjmacguffin wrote:
a0ashle wrote:
I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

MST3K rarely used major motion pictures from big studios. Instead, they focused on small studios and independent productions. (RiffTraxx is another story.) And if this mockery is really bullying and all that, then professional vs. amateur shouldn't matter. I see your point about the track meet, though. That's why I'm not interested in this event. I'm not above laughing at horrible media (I do that with OKCupid profiles from time to time), but I wouldn't want to do something specifically to make people feel bad. I'm just not sure I want GenCon deciding that for me. 

I think professional vs. amateur makes a big difference, it goes back to the punching up or punching down mentioned earlier in the thread. Picking amateur fan fiction and making fun of them for being amateur seems counter to the idea of the convention, a place we go so that we can celebrate our nerdiness openly. If the event is going to stand, I really hope that they keep it anonymous. 

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Posted by rbree wjmacguffin
#36

wjmacguffin wrote:
a0ashle wrote:
I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

MST3K rarely used major motion pictures from big studios. Instead, they focused on small studios and independent productions. (RiffTraxx is another story.) And if this mockery is really bullying and all that, then professional vs. amateur shouldn't matter. I see your point about the track meet, though. That's why I'm not interested in this event. I'm not above laughing at horrible media (I do that with OKCupid profiles from time to time), but I wouldn't want to do something specifically to make people feel bad. I'm just not sure I want GenCon deciding that for me. 
As I understand it Gen Con has approved the event.  It's other Gen Con attendees who are basing there opinions purely on the event description with out having attended the event or talked to the event moderator about the intent of the event who are trying to decide if ANYONE should see it or not. Isn't this akin to banning someone form an event because they look like a trouble maker?   A lot of assumptions are being thrown down with only a three line event description to base these assumptions on. 
 

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Posted by monkeyknifefight uncacreamy
#37

uncacreamy wrote:
Event SEM1696316 "Where fanfiction goes to die". I mentioned this on the facebook, and was wondering if maybe this was a better forum for it. 
Why did Gencon let an event meant specifically to bully and humiliate other people onto the list? I got a lot of 'well don't go then, problem solved', but that's not really the solution, is it?
What if it was a panel like, 'Why are these people allowed at cons?' where they put up slides of people's Cosplay and then laughed at it while they pointed out every mistake, or explained that someone was 'too fat for this costume!'
Or "Star Trek is for Geeks" where they make fun of Star Trek fans by name?
I'm sorry, just because someone isn't at the panel in which other people are making humiliating remarks, doesn't make it right. It brings down the whole tone of the convention, and is the kind of thing that scares people out of joining fandom. 
What the heck?
This event sounds hilarious. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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Posted by lovesmasher
#38

I disagree that this is in any way bullying. Criticism isn't bullying. That said, these people are clearly enjoying the work. The artist doesn't get to pick how their work is enjoyed.

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Posted by njseahawksfan a0ashle
#39

a0ashle wrote:
wjmacguffin wrote:
a0ashle wrote:
I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

MST3K rarely used major motion pictures from big studios. Instead, they focused on small studios and independent productions. (RiffTraxx is another story.) And if this mockery is really bullying and all that, then professional vs. amateur shouldn't matter. I see your point about the track meet, though. That's why I'm not interested in this event. I'm not above laughing at horrible media (I do that with OKCupid profiles from time to time), but I wouldn't want to do something specifically to make people feel bad. I'm just not sure I want GenCon deciding that for me. 

I think professional vs. amateur makes a big difference, it goes back to the punching up or punching down mentioned earlier in the thread. Picking amateur fan fiction and making fun of them for being amateur seems counter to the idea of the convention, a place we go so that we can celebrate our nerdiness openly. If the event is going to stand, I really hope that they keep it anonymous. 
I think you are parsing this incorrectly.  Professional vs. amateur is irrelevant to the issue of criticism.  Public vs. private is relevant.  It doesn't matter if someone gets paid for their art for it to be subject to criticism, but rather whether or not it has been released for public consumption. 

If it has been released publicly, then it's open to this kind of criticism.

That said, from a personal standpoint, I would hope that any amateurs whose work would be used as part of this seminar would be left anonymous by the people running this event as matter of principle.  Bad art can be called out as bad art without dragging the artist through the mud, especially an amateur.

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Posted by watchdog njseahawksfan
#40

njseahawksfan wrote:
 
I think you are parsing this incorrectly.  Professional vs. amateur is irrelevant to the issue of criticism.  Public vs. private is relevant.  It doesn't matter if someone gets paid for their art for it to be subject to criticism, but rather whether or not it has been released for public consumption. If it has been released publicly, then it's open to this kind of criticism.
I disagree.  There's a reason the NYT doesn't have their classical music critic write a piece called "Where Mozart Goes to Die:  The 10 Worst Public School Concerts."

Granted, that's an extreme example, and there's room for debate on where the line should be drawn. But in this context I think professional vs. amateur is relevant.

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Posted by a0ashle rbree
#41

rbree wrote:
wjmacguffin wrote:
a0ashle wrote:
I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

MST3K rarely used major motion pictures from big studios. Instead, they focused on small studios and independent productions. (RiffTraxx is another story.) And if this mockery is really bullying and all that, then professional vs. amateur shouldn't matter. I see your point about the track meet, though. That's why I'm not interested in this event. I'm not above laughing at horrible media (I do that with OKCupid profiles from time to time), but I wouldn't want to do something specifically to make people feel bad. I'm just not sure I want GenCon deciding that for me. 
As I understand it Gen Con has approved the event.  It's other Gen Con attendees who are basing there opinions purely on the event description with out having attended the event or talked to the event moderator about the intent of the event who are trying to decide if ANYONE should see it or not. Isn't this akin to banning someone form an event because they look like a trouble maker?   A lot of assumptions are being thrown down with only a three line event description to base these assumptions on. 
 

Isn't that exactly what a description is for? Describing the event?

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Posted by njseahawksfan watchdog
#42

watchdog wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
 
I think you are parsing this incorrectly.  Professional vs. amateur is irrelevant to the issue of criticism.  Public vs. private is relevant.  It doesn't matter if someone gets paid for their art for it to be subject to criticism, but rather whether or not it has been released for public consumption. If it has been released publicly, then it's open to this kind of criticism.
I disagree.  There's a reason the NYT doesn't have their classical music critic write a piece called "Where Mozart Goes to Die:  The 10 Worst Public School Concerts."Granted, that's an extreme example, and there's room for debate on where the line should be drawn. But in this context I think professional vs. amateur is relevant
I think there's a a very clear difference between publishing a work on the internet and hosting a small event locally so I think that your argument is a bit of apples and oranges.  Especially since the actual subject of debate isn't about the theory of whether or not a major newspaper should critique public school concerts, but whether and actual event that is actually occuring should be proactively banned because it's description makes it clear that they will be mocking published art.  My opinion is that it shouldn't, based largely on the concept that the works of art being made fun of were published by adults for public consumption and that it was done with the implicit understanding that there very well could be negative public reaction the published art.

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Posted by surrealrain
#43

I think there's not enough information to decide how I feel about this.

I'd be okay with this if they got permission from the writers, similar to a "roast me" thread.

If they didn't get permission and are just making fun of people who have no idea they're being made fun of or could come and be surprised... I'm not a fan. It's just mean spirited and cruel.

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Posted by rbree a0ashle
#44

a0ashle wrote:
rbree wrote:
wjmacguffin wrote:
a0ashle wrote:
I am not sure why the comparison to widely distributed professional media is being made and used to justify this event, but fan fiction is an amateur hobby, way different then the other examples cited here. It's like going to a track meet with the sole intention of laughing at the slowest runner... that's more Mean Girls then MST3K to me. 

MST3K rarely used major motion pictures from big studios. Instead, they focused on small studios and independent productions. (RiffTraxx is another story.) And if this mockery is really bullying and all that, then professional vs. amateur shouldn't matter. I see your point about the track meet, though. That's why I'm not interested in this event. I'm not above laughing at horrible media (I do that with OKCupid profiles from time to time), but I wouldn't want to do something specifically to make people feel bad. I'm just not sure I want GenCon deciding that for me. 
As I understand it Gen Con has approved the event.  It's other Gen Con attendees who are basing there opinions purely on the event description with out having attended the event or talked to the event moderator about the intent of the event who are trying to decide if ANYONE should see it or not. Isn't this akin to banning someone form an event because they look like a trouble maker?   A lot of assumptions are being thrown down with only a three line event description to base these assumptions on. 

Isn't that exactly what a description is for? Describing the event?
A description that does not say whether or not the participants are in on  it.... if names will be specifically be called out....  if it's specifically belittling peoples deep interests or hobbies....   if it's specifically attacking women....  if it's addressing troll fic (written badly on purpose)  or legitimate fan fiction.  All things that are being ranted about by people who are assuming the worst.
 

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Posted by a0ashle
#45

Fair enough, I think the description has done enough to allow those questions to be raised, but does not provide answers. 

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