bold predictions
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Posted by zenmazster

Posted by zenmazster

This is purely speculative and for conversation and discussion only, just my thoughts and more of a 'prediction' of what gencon might look like.

(1) Proof of vaccines will be required.  A lot of folks might disagree, and I know this will be more work, but technically we're in the middle of a pandemic still.  I don't personally see how you can hold an in person convention without requiring vaccinations.  Will you leave some folks out?  Sure.  Any Decision that you make when planning something is going to always leave someone out, there will be winners and losers.  I don't think 2022 will require vaccinnations, but 2021 I think it would be the responsible thing to do. 

Vacc passports are becoming more popular and development, and I believe may be completed by then.   In fact, I'd propose vaccine areas (high traffic like exhibit hall) and non places.

It's up to the hotels to require their own, I don't expect gencon to monitor hotels.

(2) 25% capacity.  Main goal: to hold gencon and keep people safe.  I don't think you're going to do that with 100% capacity.  think going up to 50% capacity is reasonable.  I'd say publicly announce 25% and leave the rest as a case by case basis.

(3) Have the convention take out every other table / social distance tables.   This one is kind of a no brainer.

(4) Require and enforce mask use.  Have fun with it.  Get sponsors involved.  Can you imagine how perfect a marketing opportunity this is to have someones brand on your face.  Give one away to each participant in their good bag.  Make a game of it.  "if you're wearing youre' (Example) miniature market mask, you may be randomly selected to win gift cards throughout the con.  incentivize people to wear them while making fat stacks of sponsor cash.

(5) Avoid events that require gigantic large groups of people, especially when drinking.  I absolutely love and adore the gencon dance.  it's one of my favorite things to go to.  I think we can skip a year.  I know we'll be dissappointed but not heart broken.  Any time you have hundreds of people sweating and drinking and bumping into each other, that's no good for anyone, that's a super spreader.  Even assuming everyone is vaxxed up cause you KNOW someone other folks will be crashing that party.  That goes for the costume parade, etc, other large person events.  We get it, people will be dissappointed, but it's just simply not the year for it.

That's all I have for now.  I AM excited to come to gencon again, and want to help any way I can.

Posted by thesuperskrull

I don't think number 1 will happen because it will be a nightmare to deal with. I would consider the rest likely.

About number 1 though, I do have a question (well, questions). The goal of a vaccine is to make it so that you (generic you) can't get the disease, right? So if you have the vaccine, someone next to you not having it won't get you sick. They might get sick, but they chose to not take the vaccine (or can't take it and have chosen to get into a large gathering). So, why the push for everyone in attendance to have it? (the push is more in other threads). If you have taken it, you are safe. If you haven't taken it, you have chosen to potentially get infected (or you can't take it and have chosen to gather in a crowd). That seems like a choice that doesn't impact the people that have taken the vaccine. So, am I missing something because it seems like an unnecessary limitation. People are allowed to take risks and this one only seems to potentially harm the ones taking it so I don't get where the push is coming from.

Don't take that as pro or anti vax or this particular vaccine. I just feel like there is something I am not understanding here as I see people pushing for this and it doesn't make any sense. If you have the vaccine, it doesn't matter if the person next to you does or does not, so why insist that they do for a particular event? Or is this one of the things that is different about this type of vaccine that I am not getting? 

Posted by zenmazster

No I hear ya, it's not a bad question.  It's confusing.  And weird, and not every person reacts or is affected to the vaccine and covid in the same way.

Also there's the personal liberty vs personal choice vs rules for safety infringing on me conversation.  Both sides have great points and there's no clear cut easy answer.  

I think there are several precidents set that put restrictions on our lives (going against our personal choice) to keep everyone safer.  Take the seatbelt for example.  The same person could say 'why does the government make me wear a seat belt?  I'm not at any risk, doesn't help or hurt me, they're just infringing my right to choose.  (i understand your question is more medically related, but it all kind of ties in and is intertwined tightly together).  But the government said 'nope, i get it you want personal freedoms.  in this case we're requiring this to keep everyone safer, sorry.  I know it's inconvenient, and believe us it's a pain in the butt to have to enforce it, but I believe you sacrificing your freedom is worth the greater good."

Same thing hear.  Requiring a vaccination isn't new.  Schools do it when enrolling kids.  Airplanes require them to board an airplane.  I'm saying for 2021 alone, this isn't an unreasonable request for the greater good.  Would it be a complete pain in the ass to monitor?  Sure.  We don't expect perfection.  Will some people slip in maybe?  sure, will some people fake a card or something?  I dunno, probably.  Will your vaccine keep you safer if next to someone with no vaccine.  All of these are amazing relevant and great questions.  The answer is probably.  But if we don't have a mandate like this, then EVERYONE comes in to an indoor space, and then it's one big petri dish. 

There will ALREADY be con crud as is (flu/cold/virus/bacteria), and all our immune systems will already be beaten down because of it, lack of sleep, eating poorly, (it's not like they have fresh food buffets to keep proper nutriton, nor do we expect them to, that's not their job).

I'm just saying since our immune systems are ALREADY down and working overtime, I think a controlled safe environment for one year isn't unreasonable request.  

Will you make someone upset?  Sure?  Will you hear about it?  Sure of course, although it will die down.  If I were on the board of a major con, I'd feel better knowing that I angered a vocal 25 people, and saved the lives of potentially exponentially thousands because I erred on the side of caution.

This isn't about social freedom.  This is about seat belts, in our case, vaccines, and requiring them for just this year, so we can STILL hold gencon, and make it a safe place.  If you give people ENOUGH time to plan for it (total of 60 days) ahead of time and SET THAT EXPECTATION that it's required, then NOW people have the choice if they want to come.  

This is putting your chips on science and safety instead of choice.  In the end, I personally believe it'd be the right thing to do.

Million dollar question for me personally, if they DIDN'T require them would i still come?  I....don't know.  If they do require them, I'm 100% coming.  If they don't require them,  probably not.  I'd probably sit this one out.  Maybe have a 4 day game a thon at our houses and just go next year.  

Gencon board is like our bosses or parents or guardians making good choices to still keep us entertained, but safe.  I think sometimes difficult rules and guidelines are important for safety, and I think this one is prudent.  

That's all I got, ya'll talk for a while lol.  

Posted by matthias9

"Can you imagine how perfect a marketing opportunity this is to have someones brand on your face."

This sounds like the plot of a dystopian teen novel.  And not in a good way. 

Posted by thesuperskrull zenmazster

zenmazster wrote:Million dollar question for me personally, if they DIDN'T require them would i still come?  I....don't know.  If they do require them, I'm 100% coming.  If they don't require them,  probably not.  I'd probably sit this one out.  

I appreciate the response. As I said, I'm not endorsing either approach, though I believe mandating vaccines will be a potential serious headache for GenCon. I meant more why are potential attendees, who will presumably have the vaccine since they want everyone to have it, demanding everyone have it? Are they themselves not safe since they have the vaccine? That's my "am I missing something question". So, if you don't mind me asking you specifically, what about the vaccine not being required would make you rethink going? Hopefully I am being clear that I am not looking for some kind of argument. I am honestly trying to understand the viewpoint because some folks are quite adamant about it and it isn't making sense to me.

I imagine I will likely have the vaccine by the time of the con. As I said, I am not an anti vax type. I'm not going to be first in line for my age category as I have no interest in finding out that they missed something in the brisk testing phase though. 

Posted by boute001

My question is though, how does a place require a vaccination that still is only under an emergency FDA license? Im am not arguing the goods vs bad of the vaccine, but I do recognize the reservations by roughly 1/3 of 18+ US citizens (most estimates claim 50% of Republicans and 20% of Democrats will not be getting the vaccine; so in essence assuming that this country is pretty even split R vs D, 50% of 50 % = 25% population + 20% of 50% = ~10% population) that there is not enough research/data on long term effects for a vaccine that is only a year-in at most studied.  Also comes the complicated mess of how long the vaccine lasts.  Still, the CDC states 3 months for sure..... My parents were vaccinated in February, so do they need another shot or 2 potentially before Gencon?? no one knows.  And then comes the other elephant in the room about vaccinations for children.  Still nothing approved and research is about 2 months in..... That being said, I do not anticipate most parents running out to get their 3 year old vaccinated before Gencon.  Honestly, the vaccination reqs demand from some attendees would be a logistic nightmare and in my opinion could set a dangerous precedent moving forward.  

Posted by thesuperskrull

To add to the initial post, I will predict that either there won't be a costume contest or they will greatly limit the number of attendees. Or move it to Lucas Oil where people could spread out in seats I suppose. It's normally way too packed to run as is. Likewise with some of the seminar type events. 

Now that I think about it, I suppose this could impact True Dungeon too since (at least when I have gone through) you pretty well have to get in very close proximity to discuss what to do in each room. 

Posted by xanathon zenmazster

zenmazster wrote:
No I hear ya, it's not a bad question.  It's confusing.  And weird, and not every person reacts or is affected to the vaccine and covid in the same way.
Also there's the personal liberty vs personal choice vs rules for safety infringing on me conversation.  Both sides have great points and there's no clear cut easy answer.  
I think there are several precidents set that put restrictions on our lives (going against our personal choice) to keep everyone safer.  Take the seatbelt for example.  The same person could say 'why does the government make me wear a seat belt?  I'm not at any risk, doesn't help or hurt me, they're just infringing my right to choose.  (i understand your question is more medically related, but it all kind of ties in and is intertwined tightly together).  But the government said 'nope, i get it you want personal freedoms.  in this case we're requiring this to keep everyone safer, sorry.  I know it's inconvenient, and believe us it's a pain in the butt to have to enforce it, but I believe you sacrificing your freedom is worth the greater good."
Same thing hear.  Requiring a vaccination isn't new.  Schools do it when enrolling kids.  Airplanes require them to board an airplane.  I'm saying for 2021 alone, this isn't an unreasonable request for the greater good.  Would it be a complete pain in the ass to monitor?  Sure.  We don't expect perfection.  Will some people slip in maybe?  sure, will some people fake a card or something?  I dunno, probably.  Will your vaccine keep you safer if next to someone with no vaccine.  All of these are amazing relevant and great questions.  The answer is probably.  But if we don't have a mandate like this, then EVERYONE comes in to an indoor space, and then it's one big petri dish. 
There will ALREADY be con crud as is (flu/cold/virus/bacteria), and all our immune systems will already be beaten down because of it, lack of sleep, eating poorly, (it's not like they have fresh food buffets to keep proper nutriton, nor do we expect them to, that's not their job).
I'm just saying since our immune systems are ALREADY down and working overtime, I think a controlled safe environment for one year isn't unreasonable request.  
Will you make someone upset?  Sure?  Will you hear about it?  Sure of course, although it will die down.  If I were on the board of a major con, I'd feel better knowing that I angered a vocal 25 people, and saved the lives of potentially exponentially thousands because I erred on the side of caution.
This isn't about social freedom.  This is about seat belts, in our case, vaccines, and requiring them for just this year, so we can STILL hold gencon, and make it a safe place.  If you give people ENOUGH time to plan for it (total of 60 days) ahead of time and SET THAT EXPECTATION that it's required, then NOW people have the choice if they want to come.  
This is putting your chips on science and safety instead of choice.  In the end, I personally believe it'd be the right thing to do.
Million dollar question for me personally, if they DIDN'T require them would i still come?  I....don't know.  If they do require them, I'm 100% coming.  If they don't require them,  probably not.  I'd probably sit this one out.  Maybe have a 4 day game a thon at our houses and just go next year.  
Gencon board is like our bosses or parents or guardians making good choices to still keep us entertained, but safe.  I think sometimes difficult rules and guidelines are important for safety, and I think this one is prudent.  
That's all I got, ya'll talk for a while lol.  
Its a virus not a disease.  

Posted by xanathon

Look at the COVID vaccine the same as a flu vaccine.  There is a chance that you can still get COVID, but it is small and the vaccine will mute the effects of the virus while it is in your body.

The issue with all vaccines is that if COVID continues to mutate the vaccines that are out now won't fully protect from any of the new mutated COVID viruses that may go around.

It is the same as each flu vaccine.  There is always a new flu strain every year that gets a lot of people sick, but getting a flu vaccine each year is still a good idea as one doesn't get the full symptoms of the flu.

Vaccines are not full proof, but it is better to get the vaccine than to not get the vaccine.

Posted by chaoticneutral262

What are the criteria for a normal convention?  That Covid has been 100% eradicated from the face of the Earth?

My (unpopular) opinion is that once vaccines are widely available to everyone, within a few months we need to open everything and attempt to more or less return to normal.  At some point responsibility needs to shift to the individual to protect themselves.  The vaccines are nearly 100% protective against hospitalization and death.

Otherwise we're going to be stuck in a never-ending situation where a minority of people who won't get vaccinated are going to ruin it for everyone else.  The disease will linger and mutate for years, and if we stay fixated on trying to keep these people safe, all these businesses are going to fail.  The economics of theaters, bars, concerts, festivals and conventions requires packed crowds.  25% capacity is unsustainable.

Posted by mikeboozer

As long as this thread remains respectful and on point we will allow this discussion to continue. Things are going well so far but there will be zero tolerance for out of line posts.

We have been down this road before so I'm just giving you a heads up.

So far, so good.

Mike

Posted by thesuperskrull xanathon

xanathon wrote:
Look at the COVID vaccine the same as a flu vaccine.  There is a chance that you can still get COVID, but it is small and the vaccine will mute the effects of the virus while it is in your body.
The issue with all vaccines is that if COVID continues to mutate the vaccines that are out now won't fully protect from any of the new mutated COVID viruses that may go around.
It is the same as each flu vaccine.  There is always a new flu strain every year that gets a lot of people sick, but getting a flu vaccine each year is still a good idea as one doesn't get the full symptoms of the flu.
Vaccines are not full proof, but it is better to get the vaccine than to not get the vaccine.

If you don't mind me following this up, what I am wondering is what makes this particular gathering of people special to need this requirement? I understand your argument as it applies to society at large. More people having the virus equals more chances to mutate. So, to get it out of the way, I agree that as many people as can safely take the vaccine should take it to hopefully avoid that. I am meaning what makes GenCon so special as to require this while say, going to Wal-Mart or a major sporting event*, does not?

*I'm assuming on that one. I have had no reason to look into going to a game in person. 

Posted by zenmazster

all good ;) just a couple of gencon lovers sharing opinions respectfully :)

Posted by garhkal zenmazster

zenmazster wrote:
Vacc passports are becoming more popular and development, and I believe may be completed by then.   In fact, I'd propose vaccine areas (high traffic like exhibit hall) and non places.

More popular based on what?

Posted by zenmazster

maybe 'prevalent' a better word, new york is piloting one which allows access to certain in person games and companies.  IBM is developing a digital health pass that has future benefits of storing all your medical data in a digital locker you can access.  This tech has been around a while but all of these good conversations are bring it's importance and relevance to the forefront.  

There was an early question about kids.  I don't think kids count in any of these conversations, not only can you not even get them yet for kids, but their relative 'risk' is relatively low, so that's for sure a 'bring them at your own risk' situation.  

Posted by squirecam garhkal

garhkal wrote:
zenmazster wrote:
Vacc passports are becoming more popular and development, and I believe may be completed by then.   In fact, I'd propose vaccine areas (high traffic like exhibit hall) and non places.

More popular based on what?
The airlines are pushing this. They are losing money and the vaccine passport is seen as a way to get people to fly again.

As for the vaccine only, its their right. No one has the right to fly with them. Countries require vaccination proof for yellow fever for example. Or you cant enter.

This is nothing new.

Posted by squirecam thesuperskrull

thesuperskrull wrote:
xanathon wrote:
Look at the COVID vaccine the same as a flu vaccine.  There is a chance that you can still get COVID, but it is small and the vaccine will mute the effects of the virus while it is in your body.
The issue with all vaccines is that if COVID continues to mutate the vaccines that are out now won't fully protect from any of the new mutated COVID viruses that may go around.
It is the same as each flu vaccine.  There is always a new flu strain every year that gets a lot of people sick, but getting a flu vaccine each year is still a good idea as one doesn't get the full symptoms of the flu.
Vaccines are not full proof, but it is better to get the vaccine than to not get the vaccine.

If you don't mind me following this up, what I am wondering is what makes this particular gathering of people special to need this requirement? I understand your argument as it applies to society at large. More people having the virus equals more chances to mutate. So, to get it out of the way, I agree that as many people as can safely take the vaccine should take it to hopefully avoid that. I am meaning what makes GenCon so special as to require this while say, going to Wal-Mart or a major sporting event*, does not?*I'm assuming on that one. I have had no reason to look into going to a game in person. 
Big difference between a grocery store (food is a necessity of life) and a gaming convention.

Gencon can legally require proof of vaccination if they wanted to.

https://www-washingtonpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/03/06/workplace-covid-vaccine-policies/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16165316439457&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Flifestyle%2F2021%2F03%2F06%2Fworkplace-covid-vaccine-policies%2F

Posted by matthias9

thesuperskrull:  "The goal of a vaccine is to make it so that you (generic you) can't get the disease, right? So if you have the vaccine, someone next to you not having it won't get you sick. They might get sick, but they chose to not take the vaccine (or can't take it and have chosen to get into a large gathering). So, why the push for everyone in attendance to have it?"

With all due respect, this question has been asked and answered over and over.  Do we have to keep going over it, again and again?  We get it, you don't want to get vaccinated.  This question is like asking "if seatbelts work, why the need for a speed limit?"

How about this, let's pretend those of us who get vaccinated are now 100% safe even if you are there with COVID (and this is not actually true).  Say there are 20% of people such as yourself.  You guys spread it around amongst yourself -- which you seem to think is just you taking assuming risks because I am safe.  It is still true then that you all take it back and spread it around everywhere else.  So, it isn't really that sijmple.

boute001:  "Im am not arguing the goods vs bad of the vaccine, but I do recognize the reservations by roughly 1/3 of 18+ US citizens (most estimates claim 50% of Republicans and 20% of Democrats will not be getting the vaccine; so in essence assuming that this country is pretty even split R vs D, 50% of 50 % = 25% population + 20% of 50% = ~10% population) that there is not enough research/data on long term effects for a vaccine that is only a year-in at most studied.

But you ARE arguing the goods vs bad of the vaccine -- you didn't even make it to the end of THAT SENTENCE before you did so.  (And, also, anti-vax people really like to just ignore the long term effects of having had COVID, but I digress.)

Gen Con has said that they don't yet know if vaccines will be required.  That means there is at least the possibility that they will be required.  Personally, I am hoping they are required.  That's the only thing that will stop some of you from choosing to put others at risk. If you don't want to get one, that's up to you.  

But, as someone else said in a different thread, there is ZERO chance Gen Con would be happening without the vaccine.  Think about that.  If you aren't getting it, you aren't helping the situation.  Don't coast on the coattails of what others are doing to solve this problem.

Posted by thesuperskrull squirecam

squirecam wrote:
garhkal wrote:
zenmazster wrote:
Vacc passports are becoming more popular and development, and I believe may be completed by then.   In fact, I'd propose vaccine areas (high traffic like exhibit hall) and non places.

More popular based on what?
The airlines are pushing this. They are losing money and the vaccine passport is seen as a way to get people to fly again.As for the vaccine only, its their right. No one has the right to fly with them. Countries require vaccination proof for yellow fever for example. Or you cant enter.
This is nothing new.
Aren't the airlines also saying that their ventilation systems make it very difficult to impossible to spread Covid on a plane? Which brings me back to, why does having people around you have the vaccine make you, who presumably also have the vaccine, feel safer? 

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